We'll have to disagree about rights being universal or not, I don't think it truly matters for the discussion though.BjornP wrote:Ah, well I deny that our Western human or civil rights are universal, because they're obviously not when you look around the world. I want to live in a society with freedom and human rights because I agree with and consider those rights to be worthwhile, reasonable and just. Not because they're part of some Platonic ideal of freedom and human rights we've drawn from the Aether.JohnDonne wrote:
When I said she has the right to speak to the Swiss about their cowbells I was talking about a moral right, (a distinction in English from actual constitutionally or lawfully recognized rights) in response to the claims that she was somehow an asshole, or morally in the wrong for complaining about Swiss culture while living there. I am saying she was morally correct and not an asshole to criticize another culture for their cruel practices , no matter where she is from or where she lives, because wrong is wrong and right is right. I was not saying the Swiss are legally obligated to be her audience.
About cultural relativism, I am denying the idea that to criticize cruelty is to "impose ones morality" on another in an unfair manner. I never said or implied that it was "un-culturally relativistic" to criticize other cultures, I am saying criticism of other cultures is compatible with both universal morality as well as relativistic morality.
I can respect the right of a culture to be different only so far as the culture respects the individual's rights. For I don't recognize the "right" to take away rights, that is not a "right" of any sort, if you are confused about the matter I am sorry for you.
I am fairly sure that Swiss citizens are all afforded the same sort of freedoms you'll see in several other European countries. Obviously, those freedoms apply to citizens, though. Having a "Person applying for citizenship is a pain in the ass"- disqualifier as part of citizenship application is not a moral wrong given that, while rights are individual, this woman was applying to join a specific community, a society. They get to decide if she belongs or not. The applicant does not.
Criticising animal cruelty isn't imposing one's morality - nor do I say that it is, indeed I linked to a Swiss study saying the same thing in my first post. But the cultural way Americans communicate with each other, for example, can be considered rude in some countries, whereas the way Danes communicate with each other would be considered rude by Americans. There are methods of communication, cultural codes if you will, to how you are supposed to communicate in any given country, if you want people to take you seriously.
I was not saying the swiss denying her citizenship was the moral wrong, I was saying the people trying to make her out to be an asshole are incorrect in their characterization of her.
I would argue she is not an asshole because there is no culturally "polite" way to go into another country and criticize their cruelty to animals, or rather, no matter how polite and culturally sensitive you are, the content of the message is what provokes the hostility. I can attest to this as a vegan in my own culture, in fact, I don't even have to say anything other than that I'm a vegan, and people will become defensive about their own behavior, never mind when I actually argue for animal rights in a dispassionate and non accusatory way. People will take it personally because they understand the implications of the argument and their cognitive dissonance cannot allow this, so they go into attack mode.
