Cut the Bull Shit. What would war with North Korea look like?

[BjornP]

Well, I sort of did, sort of didn't choose it, remember? You have no choice when it comes to serving, but you are allowed a choice when it comes to picking which branch of the military you want to go to. Two of my brothers had been artilleryman before that, so that factored into the equation, too. One made a career of it, but moved over to the telegraph troops. The year I was a conscript at the then "King's Artillery Regiment", it had the lowest number of volunteers in several years, there weren't many who were really enthustiatic about being artilleryman.

But still, alot could get pretty enthusiastic about things that made loud boom noises.. As we say here, simple minds, simple pleasures.

I sense mathematical skills in your family. Same with mine. Oldest brother went to coastal artillery, middle brother forward observer for army art and I was picked for the signal core after acing the morse test.

Yeah, those of my two brothers who were artillerymen are now a developer co-owner of a company that creates software solutions for some major Danish clients, and the other recently started teaching "Supply Chain Management" at a business school after several years in the private sector working logistics management. Another brother who avoided conscription due to a lucky draw (literally), is a mechanical engineer at Siemens. There's also a former bricklayer brother (had to retire due to a nasty fall that damaged his knee) now lighting technician for TV and movie productions. And I recall a niece of mine is a lab tech at Novo Nordisk (major pharma company).

And then there's me...who's not particularly mathematically gifted, but I worked in historical archives finding out things for amateur historians, genealogists, journalists and occasional surly public servants who can't look up property histories for themselves. Knowing how to find something by finding out another and knowing where to look to for that one piece of data that lets you find out another piece of data, which lets you finally answer the question the citizen wants answered about the past... that may not be mathematical, but there's a rational method behind the searching for answers.

Morse test to pick troops to the signal core? Must have been an old test still carried on.

..or a certain someone carried out that test back in olden times?

Though I guess, given Smitty's response to what I was taught back in '02, it could be that some militaries are just a tiny bit outdated.

[Hastur]

My conscription test was in 1985. Plenty of uses for Morse code still back then. Since I aced the IQ test as well and made an impression on the psychologist I was singled out for command. Ended up as communication company commander. Radio link, cable and telephonie.

[Smitty-48]

Morse is still in use, US Army SF 18Echo, send and recieve morse code is a requirement, same with all SOF signallers in NATO.

We were all taught Morse on Recce SERE, for in the event we be reduced to tapping out messages in captivity, fighter pilots, same thing.

[BjornP]

Oh, I'm just trying to make Hastur feel old. Doesn't appear to be working, I think. When we got picked for conscription, the tests didn't include anything we needed to learn as part of the training. It was fitness testing, health checkup, IQ test and there was a some other test I can't recall. Was either psychology or dental.

[Smitty-48]

How much peer pressure was there in the ranks when you guy's were conscripts? Was everybody keen to do well, or were you stuck with a lot of "I'm just here because this is slightly better than jail" types?

What is defaulters like for those who won't get with the program? Do they pack drill them in the sun until they collapse or just stamp no desserts on their meal card?

[ssu]

How much peer pressure was there in the ranks when you guy's were conscripts? Was everybody keen to do well, or were you stuck with a lot of "I'm just here because this is slightly better than jail" types?

What is defaulters like for those who won't get with the program? Do they pack drill them in the sun until they collapse or just stamp no desserts on their meal card?

Those who cannot handle it can simply drop out. Just say that your head cannot handle it and you are out. Many career officers think that it simply is too easy to drop out and hence the attrition is high because of that. About 10% of the men who start conscription here wash out or change to non-military service. When 75%-80% of males do come in, the only thing you have plenty of is manpower.

It's a good thing, actually. You don't want a guy with a bad drug problem or mental problem next to you with a loaded assault rifle. I remember getting to room on the first day as a conscript and think "Jesus, I'm going to have that idiot around for the next year", but the guy was luckily out the next day as army life was too much for him. Nowdays they look more thoroughly the people at start, which is good.

Here we have first an universal basic training, after that people are picked to go NCO shool 1 and after that some are picked from that to go to the reserve officer school. Understandable then that in NCO school everydoby does want to do well and in Reserve Officer School it can be a bit competitive. "I'm just here because this is slightly better than jail" types do exist who go through their conscription time bitching all the way, because they don't want to be labeled as non-military servicemen. The non-military service is seen a bit of a "gay thing". Not quite manly, so that can be an issue for some.

The real pick is afterwards from there what happens in the reserve as conscription here is just training. People forget that the actual army is made up of people only after conscrpition (and all the professional soldiers have at first done their conscript service). If you go to the blue berets or some international ready-force, all those positions are applied for and there are more applicant reservists than there are positions to fill. Hence the army does OK in international operations as everybody are hand-picked volunteers (thanks to the massive amount of reservists). Also those that get promotion beyond sergeant (if NCO) or second lieutenant (for officers), then you have to be better than the average... or be very lucky.

A question back to you Smitty: what percentage did you have of those "I'm just here because this is slightly better than jail" did you have in your time in the Canadian armed forces? Curious to know.

[Smitty-48]

A question back to you Smitty: what percentage did you have of those "I'm just here because this is slightly better than jail" did you have in your time in the Canadian armed forces? Curious to know.

Almost none, I mean, there were some rough characters, guy's who had been in jail too, but it was a highly motivated environment, there's a lot of peer pressure to maintain the standard, everybody was competitive, if you're not getting with the program, people will sort you out right quick before the instructors ever have to, in my day, if you got corrected by the instructor, everybody in the platoon would pounce on you for being the "blade", nobody wanted to be the "blade", that was the lowest of the low, everybody wanted to be "keen", that was our word for it, if you're weren't "keen", you didn't last long, and you could get the shit beat out of you if you were really being a "blade".

[Smitty-48]

First week at infantry battleschool, it was like Navy SEAL Hell Week, they fuckin' laid into us, anybody who wasn't 100% up for it, was gone in a matter of hours, by the end of the week, only the keenest of the keen remained.

Didn't get any easier neither, most infantry courses were like that, on my Section Commanders course, 144 candidates started the course, 14 passed, I was 14th out of 14, but the youngest candidate on the course mind you, still not even officially a Corporal yet, I was qualified all the way to Sergeant, just 19 years old.

I think my OC put me on the course as a kind of punishment, just to humble me, they never expected me to pass, but I was a keener back then, they couldn't make me quit, they coudn't find any way to fail me neither, and trust me, they tried, but that's how we came up in my day, keenest of the keen, in a highly motivated and competitive environment.

My old man drove seven hours to be at the grad parade, we just come out of the field, didn't even know he was gonna be there, he was proud, I was happy, that was a good day, only got eight hours of sleep over the final nine days, but I was walking on air.

[ssu]

First week at infantry battleschool, it was like Navy SEAL Hell Week, they fuckin' laid into us, anybody who wasn't 100% up for it, was gone in matter of hours.

I can imagine that. First week(s) have to be like that. I think it's quite universal, something learned from centuries of experience.

I thought that army would be hell for me. I wasn't very good sports so I assumed I would be like Gomer Pyle in Full Metal Jacket (that guy who in the middle of the film blew his brains out), allways being the last and allways fucking up. Never, ever I thought of being an reserve officer. Well, reality was different (and of course, it was the artillery). Running around, being yelled at and all the stuff in reality isn't so bad. Yet if you haven't experienced it you might think (as I before) that it is worse and you wouldn't make the cut.

Likely in the US or Canada I would have been like ol' Dan Carlin, thinking that people in the military are doing a great job, but it isn't for me. And I noticed a lot of similar guys who only got interested about the thing only once in uniform and went on well.

144 candidates started the course, 14 passed, I was 14th out of 14, but the youngest candidate on the course mind you, still not even officially a Corporal yet, I was qualified all the way to Sergeant, just 19 years old.

Now that is a tough cut! 1 in ten.

[Smitty-48]

I didn't really realize what I was signing up for, I thought I had some idea, but I had no idea how intense anything like that could be, particularly with the sleep deprivation, you go a week without any REM, you start to hallucinate, but even then, you gotta keep the pace, I lot of guys just cracked from having to go, go, go, day and night, without any sleep, but like I said, the instructors taught us, but we self motivated, the peer pressure was off the charts, you couldn't let your peers down, anybody who did, was removed from training, for their own protection, if you couldn't hack it, the platoon wouldn't have you, if you weren't removed, they'd go prison yard on you.

The harder it got, the more tightly wired everybody got, intense, no time for any fuckin' around at all, it's kind of like, we made it this far, and you will not be the reason we don't make it all the way, if you are dead weight, you need to be gone and you need to be gone right now, once you've come so far, and endured all that shit, you're just hanging on for dear life, just one foot in front of the other, just keep grinding it out, guy's dropping out, voluntarily, and you'd look at them like they were crazy, to come this far and then quit? I couldn't beleive anybody would put up with that hell, and then quit within sight of the end, but they did, like I said, they just cracked, couldn't do it anymore, had nothing left in the tank.

That's how they ran it, it wasn't a come one come all situation, it was elite, but the instructors knew who had to go, one minute a guy would be slowing down, next minute he'd be gone, the company quickly whittled down to a platoon, that platoon was down to just a section at the end, you're looking around at the other guys, and you're thinking; holy fuck, how'd we last this long? There were so many guys on the first day, you're thinking; that guy's a beast, super athelete type, no way I can keep up with him, but most of those guy's were long gone, when it was just 14 of us left in the back of the truck, rolling up for grad parade.

Best feeling in the world, when they just called endex all of a sudden, we were so fucked up by then, we didn't even realize that it was the last day, we had no idea what day it was, and you couldn't even think about the end, you had to just keep going, just think about what you're doing right now and don't think about anything else. Without any sleep at all, you have to concentrate just to do the smallest things, can't focus on the big picture, you're in your own little world by then, just the next step in battle procedure and nothing else in this world by then, so the end just arrived without any warning, we had this instructor, everybody was terrified of him, he failed people without quarter nor mercy, he crushed people's souls, no feelings, no sign of human compassion, he's JTF2 now, anyways, as soon as they called endex, he just switched modes in a split second, one minute he was the grim reaper, next minute he's grinning and shaking your hand, "congratulations, nice to meet you, my names Paul" I just stood there stunned.