Okeefenokee wrote:They don't get the benefit of the doubt. They blew that. If they don't have any evidence that they can present saying, "look. this is how we know," then they don't have any business saying a fucking word in the first place. If that's the case, the entire agency needs to go. Every fucking person there barred for life from ever working in the US government.
A foreign government rigging an election is something that could start a war, and if they're making all this talk without any evidence, they have to go.
Exactly, but according to ssu we have to give them the benefit of the doubt because of his paranoid anti-Russian delusions that allow him to see "the bigger picture". This "bigger picture" is obvious proof of Russian involvement in the US election.
ssu wrote:What evidence would you believe? A thorough Congressional hearing and the 150-page document published to the public?
Anything that amounts to more than "trust us, we're the experts". That would be swell, still waiting.
Ok, StCapps, I buy that.
Yes, naturally every nation tells things in their favour. But there are difference in nations and just how much they lie, how much they are open about their true actions.
In this "information warfare" environment, which is engaged by both sides, it's going to be the history books that will have the correct views about the issue with historians plowing through the now secret documents in the Kremlin and Washington DC. Or let's hope there is that kind of future.
Okeefenokee wrote:A foreign government rigging an election is something that could start a war, and if they're making all this talk without any evidence, they have to go.
I think nobody is actually talking about Russians rigging the election. Even the White House has said there is no evidence of this.
And what I'm saying is that Putin, using well old tactics of the Soviet Union, is on a roll here. Not because he's smart (which he is), but there is a hell lot of anger against the establishment in both the US and in Europe. And the Russians do know how to use the situation to their advantage.
This whole election hacking isn't really about hacking the voting machines. It's more like a life hack. They accuse the Russians of spreading influence to tip the scales, which in this case involves emails possibly being hacked, but which could have happened at any time in the past. Russian spies could have stolen Kennedy's mail and spread it around to make him look bad and lose an election. There's nothing about this that says it couldn't have happened in the past.
Airing out one party's dirty laundry is something that could have been done in any election we've ever had. So, has it happened? Do I just not know of it, or have we never before accused a foreign power of doing something that any of our global peers could have done countless times across two and a half centuries?
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.
This whole election hacking isn't really about hacking the voting machines. It's more like a life hack. They accuse the Russians of spreading influence to tip the scales, which in this case involves emails possibly being hacked, but which could have happened at any time in the past. Russian spies could have stolen Kennedy's mail and spread it around to make him look bad and lose an election. There's nothing about this that says it couldn't have happened in the past.
Well, what the US is blaming Russia is called "active measures". And this was a thing done during the Cold War. The KGB did it then too. It wasn't just as effective, but exactly the same kind of methods were used. Of course, then no internet, which makes it easier.
The above old documentary explains well how disinformation was done by for example creating forgeries by the KGB. The KGB could for example leak falsified documents as US official papers that described the US on intent to stage a coup (which is told in the above old documentary, I think).
Okeefenokee wrote:Airing out one party's dirty laundry is something that could have been done in any election we've ever had. So, has it happened? Do I just not know of it, or have we never before accused a foreign power of doing something that any of our global peers could have done countless times across two and a half centuries?
There was a Cold War going on, so the KGB had just basically Gus Hall and the Communist Party of USA, which wasn't going to go anywhere. In the end, be it a Democrat or a Republican, there wasn't much difference.
What Putin does is to use the same antics, same information warfare, same tactics of subversion and misinformation than the Soviet Union did. But then that was basically compromised by the ideological requirement that the Communist Party put on. Hence the parties the KGB favoured where the Communist Parties, or groups like the World Peace Council. Not so overwhelmingly popular in the West. Now Putin just takes the side, whatever the side is, what is useful for Russia's interests. Best example is siding first with the Scottish Independence, then with Brexiters: anything that could weaken the stance of one NATO member with nuclear weapons.
Russia takes positions on issues that are in Russia's favor? /clutches pearls.
I could just as easily say Obama tried to hack the election by trying to tip the scales in Hillary's favor, or that the press tried to hack the election by running a non-stop smear campaign for a year and a half. Hell, every press outlet in Europe seemed to be in on the smear job. All of Europe tried to hack the election!
No, the democrats just fucking lost. That's all that happened.
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.
Russia attempted to sway our election?! My God, what about the Elites in America who attempted to sway our election? Jesus Christ, I can't believe somebody would equate REAL damning DNC emails with CNN, MSNBC, The Washington Post, the LA Times, The National Review, USA Today, Reuters, the "Never Trump" cabal, 91% negative Trump reporting, etc., etc., etc.
Two birds with one stone. Sway our election in their favor and discredit our media.
Realpolitik time. I have zero problems with this. Our liberals want to liberate Russia over what? They outlawed teaching homosexuality to children? Meanwhile our closest ally Saudi Arabia can't make up their mind if adulterers deserve death or flogging. Fuck off liberals you made your bed.
Hey, if you got important shit, someone else wants it. If you don't protect it, that's your bad.
GrumpyCatFace wrote:Dumb slut partied too hard and woke up in a weird house. Ran out the door, weeping for her failed life choices, concerned townsfolk notes her appearance and alerted the fuzz.
