Turkey Has Proof of US/ISIS Cooperation

[Smitty-48]

Bullshit. ISIS was only what it was because of it's success against the IA. No hollywood IA victories, no draw to ISIS. The folding up of the IA by ISIS was what made them. With a US force in theater, ISIS hits a wall, and is left far less strengthened against Assad. US troops in Iraq stops, or probably even prevents entirely their incursion into Iraq, and all they are is another rebel group in Syria.

No Mosul oil money. No US weapons and vehicles. No propaganda wins. ISIS is nothing without a successful invasion of northern Iraq, and with US troops in Iraq, that never happens.

They don't need those sorts of weapons to inflict an endless drip-drip-drip of casualites on US troops, they don't need oil money neither, all you would be doing is delaying the inevitable, killing and maiming more of your troops, to no good purpose, the Republicans were incapable of admitting defeat, the Republicans were simply leaving you in that quagmire indefinitely, just to keep from having to publically admit that they were wrong all along, and you would have obeyed them and stayed there forever, Obama did America a solid, by saving you from yourselves, and then taking the blame for it.

It's naive to say the least, to think that the Surge and Awakening was a permanent state of affairs, the Sunnis were always going to turn on the Shia and the Kurds, all Obama did, was make sure that your troops were no longer sitting ducks in the crossfire, when that inevitably came to pass, led by IS from their stronghold in Syria.

[Okeefenokee]

Bullshit. ISIS was only what it was because of it's success against the IA. No hollywood IA victories, no draw to ISIS. The folding up of the IA by ISIS was what made them. With a US force in theater, ISIS hits a wall, and is left far less strengthened against Assad. US troops in Iraq stops, or probably even prevents entirely their incursion into Iraq, and all they are is another rebel group in Syria.

No Mosul oil money. No US weapons and vehicles. No propaganda wins. ISIS is nothing without a successful invasion of northern Iraq, and with US troops in Iraq, that never happens.

They don't need those sorts of weapons to inflict an endless drip-drip-drip of casualites on US troops, they don't need oil money neither, all you would be doing is delaying the inevitable, killing and maiming more of your troops, to no good purpose, the Republicans were incapable of admitting defeat, the Republicans were simply holding you in the quagmire forever, and you would have obeyed them and stayed their forever, Obama did America a solid, by saving you from yourselves, and then taking the blame for it.

You're ignoring what Iraq had become. The insurgency was done. It wasn't Afghanistan with a resurgent Taliban. Iraq was off the news and attacks were a rarity. ISIS was in Syria for months, and they weren't on the world's radar. They weren't having any great victories against Assad. They held a little bit of territory, and all the other rebel factions also held little bits of territory. They were fighting each other as much as they were fighting Assad. It was only because they realized the easier front was to the south against the incompetent IA that they became globally known. Before ISIS invaded Iraq, they were a non entity, but after, they were regarded as a true adversary, and in came the recruits.

ISIS would have never had a chance to invade Iraq with a US presence, would never had had the propaganda wins, would never had had the financing of Iraqi oil, would never had had the armaments they had before they lost most of them, and would never ever.....ever ever ever ever gotten to the heights they got to, before they got taken out by a couple thousand Kurds, if they had been facing US troops in Iraq rather than the garbage IA.

US troops wouldn't have been facing ISIS attacks because, unlike the rebels in Aleppo, ISIS on the border of Iraq is out in the open. They aren't an insurgency, yet. They have always been a conventional force taking and holding territory. Any ground they had in Syria would have been their graves. You can't launch insurgency attacks in Iraq when your small holdings in Syria are being assaulted by Assad's troops.

Taking northern Iraq is what made ISIS. US troops in Iraq means that never happens, and ISIS never rises to anything more than another rebel group getting pummeled into dust by Assad without any time to think about any asymmetrical warfare elsewhere.

[Smitty-48]

Taking northern Iraq was a function of the Shia in Baghdad, the Sunnis were going to rise up against the Shia and Kurds, inevitably, that was going to happen, you weren't going to stop it, US troops would simply have been sitting ducks in the crossfire, the American people were already demanding that US troops be withdrawn from this endless quagmire, US were leaving sooner rather than later, leaving US troops there for longer, would simply be delaying the inevitable, you wait a couple more years before you pull out; all you do is kill and maim more of your troops to no good purpose, Syria still melts down, IS still comes to pass, they just end up taking Norther Iraq at a later date, after more of your troops have been killed and maimed, Obama saved you the trouble and blood, by just saying, fuck this, lets just get the hell out of here right now, no need to stay here and soak up anymore of this shit, just to provide the Republicans with poltical cover.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

So all these toys I've been paying for aren't good for anything but padding your pocket with sweet LMT money?

LMT's job is deter the Russians and Chinese so that you never have to fight an industrial interstate total war again, LMT can't save you from the quagmire of trying to put Iraqi-Dumpty back together again, LMT is a defense contractor, they're not miracle workers.

LMT does not make any weapons, which could ever slay American Imperial Hubris.

Yeah, well you would say that... you want me to keep writing those checks.

[Smitty-48]

Yeah, well you would say that... you want me to keep writing those checks.

The cheques don't come from you, I doubt you pay much tax, but moreover, the cheques are being written by those who buy US treasuries, the biggest cheque writers are actually Central Banks, led by the Fed.

[Smitty-48]

It's pretty simple folks; Obama was elected on a mandate to end the Iraq War, that was not up for anymore debate, the election decided that, it was gonna happen, because that is what America elected him to do.

So, here are your options; get the fuck out, right away, or stay for a few more years, soak up more casualties as you do, then get the fuck out. One way or the other, you were leaving, Obama simply did America a solid, by not dithering nor doddling, but just getting her done, quick and dirty.

The Sunni Wahhabists backed by Saudi Arabia, were going to contest the Anbar at some point, all Obama did, was save you the trouble of being in the way when they did, and then taking the blame for it, when the Republicans inevitably tried to make it like all this was his fault, instead of their fault, for getting you into this fucktarded quagmire to nowhere in the first place.

Lord knows I'm not an Obama fan, but in this case, Obama saved you from yourselves, no doubt about it.

[Okeefenokee]

Taking northern Iraq was a function of the Shia in Baghdad, the Sunnis were going to rise up against the Shia and Kurds, inevitably, that was going to happen, you weren't going to stop it, US troops would simply have been sitting ducks in the crossfire, the American people were already demanding that US troops be withdrawn from this endless quagmire, US were leaving sooner rather than later, leaving US troops there for longer, would simply be delaying the inevitable, you wait a couple more years before you pull out; all you do is kill and maim more of your troops to no good purpose, Syria still melts down, IS still comes to pass, they just end up taking Norther Iraq at a later date, after more of your troops have been killed and maimed, Obama saved you the trouble and blood, by just saying, fuck this, lets just get the hell out of here right now, no need to stay here and soak up anymore of this shit, just to provide the Republicans with poltical cover.

Now you're moving the goal posts. I agree this whole shit show is something we needed to get out of. No doubt there. If it wasn't ISIS then, it would have been ISIS later, but not the way it happened if we had been there. You hold a tiger by the tail, and eventually you're gonna have to let go, and he's gonna turn around and bite when you do. That's not what I'm arguing.

I'm saying ISIS in 2013 would not have taken territory in Iraq, would not have risen to the global stage, would not have become the power they became, if US troops had been in Iraq. In our timeline, had ISIS faced off against US forces in Iraq, they would have never taken any ground, nor would they even tried to. What would have happened otherwise is beside the point. No successful invasion of Iraq, no ISIS.

Consider that ISIS is being beaten back on every front by forces other than a considerable US one. If they can't stand up to those forces, how would they have ever been successful against the US? If Kurdistan, Iraq, Syria, and Iran are more than ISIS can handle, how the hell could they have ever hoped to take on the US Army in a conventional fight? Because that's what it's been. ISIS isn't an insurgent force, yet. They're getting whipped, long after reaching their height, by forces that US troops could wipe away like flies. The only reason they reached that height is because they were able to beat third rate forces. They would have never seen a victory on an open battlefield against US forces, and thus, would have never become anything more than another rebel group in Syria getting chipped away at by Assad.

[Smitty-48]

BUMP

It's pretty simple folks; Obama was elected on a mandate to end the Iraq War, that was not up for anymore debate, the election decided that, it was gonna happen, because that is what America elected him to do.

So, here are your options; get the fuck out, right away, or stay for a few more years, soak up more casualties as you do, then get the fuck out. One way or the other, you were leaving, Obama simply did America a solid, by not dithering nor doddling, but just getting her done, quick and dirty.

The Sunni Wahhabists, backed by Saudi Arabia, led by the Daesh, were going to contest the Anbar at some point, all Obama did, was save you the trouble of being in the way when they did, and then taking the blame for it, when the Republicans inevitably tried to make it like all this was his fault, instead of their fault, for getting you into this fucktarded quagmire to nowhere in the first place.

Lord knows I'm not an Obama fan, but in this case, Obama saved you from yourselves, no doubt about it.

[Okeefenokee]

BUMP

It's pretty simple folks; Obama was elected on a mandate to end the Iraq War, that was not up for anymore debate, the election decided that, it was gonna happen, because that is what America elected him to do.

So, here are your options; get the fuck out, right away, or stay for a few more years, soak up more casualties as you do, then get the fuck out. One way or the other, you were leaving, Obama simply did America a solid, by not dithering nor doddling, but just getting her done, quick and dirty.

The Sunni Wahhabists, backed by Saudi Arabia, led by the Daesh, were going to contest the Anbar at some point, all Obama did, was save you the trouble of being in the way when they did, and then taking the blame for it, when the Republicans inevitably tried to make it like all this was his fault, instead of their fault, for getting you into this fucktarded quagmire to nowhere in the first place.

Lord knows I'm not an Obama fan, but in this case, Obama saved you from yourselves, no doubt about it.

That's not the topic.

[Smitty-48]

That's the topic; how could Obama prevent the Sunnis, led by the Daesh or some equivalent, from matastasizing in Syria, and then, by extension, contesting the Anbar against the Shia regime that Bush had installed in Baghdad? Answer; he couldn't have, because it is an endless quagmire to nowhere, the Sunnis were going to turn to the Wahhabists to defend themselves from the Shia and Kurds, it's just a question of when was America going to get out of the way, and stop soaking up casualties in the attempt to stave off the inevitable.