Speaking of trashing the recently deceased ...

[DBTrek]

Good workers keep their damn mouths shut, and their beaks out of the bosses business.

Only malcontents would dream of protecting their interests.

Ah, so you imply the purpose of unions is to protect mouthy malcontents and meddlers. Well, sounds like a resounding "No" to my question on whether we actually need these organizations. I knew you'd get there eventually.

Who is this 'we,' and why do 'we' get to determine what organizations other people get to have to protect their mouthy, meddlesome ways?

I asked if something was necessary. A question you still haven’t answered. Though I see you’re now tilting at the “who are we to say what organizations others can associate with” windmill.

Kinda a hilarious position from a guy arguing in favor of an organization whose primary purpose is to strip businesses of the right to decide what kind of employees they must retain.

I’m sure the irony is lost on you.

[Speaker to Animals]

Does there exist some moral or philosophical reason for employers having some right to control labor? They control the capital and means if production. But I don't see where they also own society and human beings. If society chooses to allow labor to organize similarly to how it allows capital to organize, then it's tough cookies for capitalists, no?

Organized capital: corporation.
Organized labor: union.

I think if you have corporations, then society should have the option to allow unions.

Public unions are another matter. Traditional labor unions are just the mirroring of corporations.

[DrYouth]

An 'effective union' is made up of people advocating for themselves, not a 'protective mother.' Working with others in your field to protect your interests because you don't have the leverage to do it on your own doesn't undermine personal responsibility.

I agree with this.

I think there is room for unionization in a free society.

Public sector unions probably have bigger hurdles to face as to accountability.

Private sector unions can definitely become problematic when they reach a certain size and wield a certain influence...

Basically the power dynamic can go to extremes in either direction...

Some power dynamic in favour of those most invested in the success of a company... i.e. the owners... is certainly a key to the success of an organization...

When the power dynamic gets to extremes and the workers are completely dispensable serious problems can result... resulting in human injury, misery and social consequences...

But when the power dynamic shifts too far in the other directions... unaccountability and inefficiency can result in serious problems as well... costing the economy and the hurting the competitiveness of the nation on the global scale.

[DBTrek]

Does there exist some moral or philosophical reason for employers having some right to control labor?

Does there exist some moral or philosophical reason for you to control the plant selection in a greenhouse you built?

Does there exist some moral or philosophical reason for you to control The ingredients in the cake you baked?

Yes.

Likewise, the person/people taking the risks to create a business that faces an uphill battle for success (as all businesses do) have both moral and philosophical high ground in the selection and retention policies of the workforce they employ.

If they suck at it, their competitors will devour them.
If they’re good at it, the employees will be satisfied and productive.

What positive developments for a business does a union bring to the table that market forces don’t already provide?

[Speaker to Animals]

Does there exist some moral or philosophical reason for employers having some right to control labor?

Does there exist some moral or philosophical reason for you to control the plant selection in a greenhouse you built?

Does there exist some moral or philosophical reason for you to control The ingredients in the cake you baked?

Yes.

What about organized labor do you believe necessitates controlling what plants a nursery grows, or what ingredients a bakery uses?

Start there before you get ahead of yourself. Because, brother, that makes no sense.

I am not convinced we are talking about the same thing, or even if you know what you are talking about.

Are there unions that would control business decisions if they could get away with it? Sure. But that's not intrinsic to organized labor anymore than Jeff Bezos' desire to control his workers free and unpaid time is intrinsic to corporation.

[DBTrek]

Plainly stated, unions are productive and fruitful for union members. They bring no benefit to a business nor to non-unionized laborers. Thus - are they necessary? Other than being self-serving, self-benefitting, coercive organizations, what do they provide that is a net plus for anyone outside of their membership?

[Speaker to Animals]

Plainly stated, unions are productive and fruitful for union members. They bring no benefit to a business nor to non-unionized laborers. Thus - are they necessary? Other than being self-serving, self-benefitting, coercive organizations, what do they provide that is a net plus for anyone outside of their membership?

Uh.. yeah. They serve the interests of the workers. The interests of the corporation run counter to the interests of the workers. A union is the natural counterbalance to the corporation.

The rest of your pathos-ridden post reads like a progressive ranting about corporations. Replace your use of union with corporation, and the post fits right in with progressive screeds about corporations.

[DBTrek]

They serve the interest of *their* workers, not the workers. Numerous industries use union membership as a barrier to entry, harming actual workers.

So again ... if we lose unions what do we really lose?

[Speaker to Animals]

They serve the interest of *their* workers, not the workers. Numerous industries use union membership as a barrier to entry, harming actual workers.

So again ... if we lose unions what do we really lose?

And.. Amazon Inc serves the interest of *their* shareholders, and not all shareholders of any corporation.

What's your point here? That unions are shit because they are not philanthropic?

[nmoore63]

I am having trouble finding it but this happened at the Boeing Everett facility.
Goats would do the work faster for cheaper.

but here is another example:

https://blogs.mprnews.org/newscut/2017/ ... nions-now/

The labor lines are being drawn in Michigan where goats are being employed to eat poison ivy on the campus of Western Michigan University.
Goats work cheap and that apparently is the problem for AFSCME, the public employee union that says the job should go to laid-off union workers, the Battle Creek Enquirer reports.

“AFSCME takes protecting the jobs of its members very seriously and we have an agreed-upon collective bargaining agreement with Western Michigan,” said Union President Dennis Moore. “We expect the contract to be followed, and in circumstances where we feel it’s needed, we file a grievance.”

The goats are ahead of schedule, according to their owner.

When you need a union because you are getting out hustled by fucking goats.