The Religion Discussion Thread

[LVH2]

The concept of free will most people have is inchoate imo. Ultimately, there has to be a mechanism that prompts your decision this way or that, even if it is randomness.

I'd say it's things like your character, knowledge or beliefs, assessment of risks and rewards, and a brew of some other things. Because of this, your free will is just a lack of being restrained from acting according to your nature. That's the most it can be.

When The Goddess created you, did she give you that nature? I guess so. I think that's where rationalists like Leibniz can come in handy. According to him, she has chosen to realize the best of all potential worlds. That world has a character like you in it. That character is allowed to act according to his nature. That's free will.

That world also has Pol Pot in it. Now, given that, should Pol Pot be punished or unpunished? Tough to say, but I still don't see anyway something like eternal torture can be justified.

[LVH2]

Haven't tried the first one - usually just spend the time battling myself to shut up inside.

This is the primary object of meditation and it has a track record of a couple millennia, as well as mounting scientific evidence for its effectiveness.

It always seemed flaky to me. But when I started, I didn't even know what I was doing really. A famous poker coach advised doing breathing excersize. Perhaps when driving. Take a breath. Think only about the breath and perhaps your immediate body sensations. Build your ability to do so for longer periods of time. If it doesn't benefit you, you've lost almost nothing. If it does benefit you, your whole life will get better. (Though it has ruined a few people, in reality).

So I started doing this and it improved my life, mainly by quieting my mind, improving mental discipline and giving me a break from the chattering monkey. Didn't really expand the practice till later. Sometimes I slack off. For a while I was prob. doing 10 hours a week and it was pretty great.

This guy is a little bit of a tool but he is frequently on target, as he is here.

[Okeefenokee]

He really doesn't see how free will and God's omniscience are compatible. That is how low brow this is.

Honestly, that one never gave me much trouble. I never saw a conflict between someone knowing something would happen and planning for it and another person choosing to do it.

If they actually have a choice, then God cannot know the outcome.

Either:

I have free will, and it’s not predictable

I don’t have free will, and the choice is meaningless. I’m to be tortured for eternity, through no fault of my own.

This has been a demonstration of just how limited a mortal mind can be. Join us again next week.

[Okeefenokee]

1) God knows every outcome therefore giving you some "test" means he gives a fuck how you will perform

Stopped right there

The first step is recognizing that you aren't God. When you catch yourself comparing how God works or what God does to what you think, you've got to stop and back up.

That's the mistake I see people make more than probably anything else. They say something like, "I wouldn't let kids die, but kids die, therefor there either isn't a god, or he's bad," and they completely miss the part where they equated themselves with the Creator of the universe, despite the fact that their perceived omniscience doesn't prevent them from stumping their toes on the furniture in the dark.

You're focussing on the nature of God. I'm focussing on what it is in humanity that drove us to create gods. Kids die or live because they're part of the natural world. The laws of the natural world rule as the framework for all life. Our attempt to cope with the harsh realities of the laws of the natural world drove us to create gods. They are literally our coping mechanism.

This is why, to me, the question of deities is more "is this still good for us?" Or "is there a better way to cope with our mortality?" or "is there a reality-based spiritual philosophy that can work for us?".

And there's the hubris of spirituality, man made god.

[MilSpecs]

The first step is recognizing that you aren't God. When you catch yourself comparing how God works or what God does to what you think, you've got to stop and back up.

That's the mistake I see people make more than probably anything else. They say something like, "I wouldn't let kids die, but kids die, therefor there either isn't a god, or he's bad," and they completely miss the part where they equated themselves with the Creator of the universe, despite the fact that their perceived omniscience doesn't prevent them from stumping their toes on the furniture in the dark.

You're focussing on the nature of God. I'm focussing on what it is in humanity that drove us to create gods. Kids die or live because they're part of the natural world. The laws of the natural world rule as the framework for all life. Our attempt to cope with the harsh realities of the laws of the natural world drove us to create gods. They are literally our coping mechanism.

This is why, to me, the question of deities is more "is this still good for us?" Or "is there a better way to cope with our mortality?" or "is there a reality-based spiritual philosophy that can work for us?".

And there's the hubris of spirituality, man made god.

It is the nature of man to create structure out of randomness.

Why is man more afraid to look inside himself than to face a deity?

[SuburbanFarmer]

Religious people pretend to want a discussion.
Are confronted with simple logic.
Claim superiority and stomp away.

/thread

[Okeefenokee]

Religious people pretend to want a discussion.
Are confronted with simple logic.
Claim superiority and stomp away.

/thread

Says the two going going around saying they created god.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Religious people pretend to want a discussion.
Are confronted with simple logic.
Claim superiority and stomp away.

/thread

Says the two going going around saying they created god.

The concept of a God, yes. Natural human reaction to the terror of uncertainty.

Growing up with strong, immortal, perfect parents, then losing that certainty with adolescence is a very frightening process. So, why not make up a bigger, invisible Daddy that will carry you through the world. Same reason we allow governments to control us, and tax us.

Lead me, Daddy. Just tell me what to do.

[MilSpecs]

Religious people pretend to want a discussion.
Are confronted with simple logic.
Claim superiority and stomp away.

/thread

Says the two going going around saying they created god.

The concept of a God, yes. Natural human reaction to the terror of uncertainty.

Growing up with strong, immortal, perfect parents, then losing that certainty with adolescence is a very frightening process. So, why not make up a bigger, invisible Daddy that will carry you through the world. Same reason we allow governments to control us, and tax us.

Lead me, Daddy. Just tell me what to do.

I don’t think it’s authoritarian as much as it is a talisman against randomness and mortality. The two biggest bads.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Says the two going going around saying they created god.

The concept of a God, yes. Natural human reaction to the terror of uncertainty.

Growing up with strong, immortal, perfect parents, then losing that certainty with adolescence is a very frightening process. So, why not make up a bigger, invisible Daddy that will carry you through the world. Same reason we allow governments to control us, and tax us.

Lead me, Daddy. Just tell me what to do.

I don’t think it’s authoritarian as much as it is a talisman against randomness and mortality. The two biggest bads.

Yes, that's what I was saying. People always lean toward authority when they're scared.