Trump is a tool of the __ / nope, just a tool

[Smitty-48]

Okay Nero, just keep that lawn looking fabulous.

It's looking pretty fabulous so far, I do have some dog pee spots to deal with, but I've trained the dogs to basically pee in one of three areas which are out of the way so that they aren't impacting the centre stage. At this point, were past the corn gluten and I just put the iron supplement down, we've been getting some regular spring rains, so it's already quite lush.

The problem we have here is that the unwashed have-nots keep increasing while the haves keep decreasing and both are separated by an increasingly terrified group of the havish realizing they've fucked.

It doesn't matter what we want; we are not going to outmaneuver that storm, which could be just a tropical depression or a category 5 hurricane. Who knows?

Well a tropical depression would be OK, I mean, it's good for your lawn, you don't want it to brown out, gotta have some rain, but if things get too wet and people start going Bolshie, well you just chuck those fucking clowns out of a helicopter; problem solved.

Don't fret, son, if some troublemakers ever did try to incite some sort of Bolshevist uprising, we would kill every last one of them, so be at peace.

You can just kick back on your deck with a vodka martini, maybe some wine and antipasto, and just enjoy the fabulousness of your lawn, don't worry about all that other shit, we got this.

[jbird4049]

That's not the origin of US involvement, US involvement begins with the bankrolling and arming of the French Indochina War against Vietnamese Self Determination, to the tune of 80%, then, when the Viet Minh win the war, the US convinces the Soviets and Chinese to force the Viet Minh to accept a partition of the country, removing all victorious Viet Minh forces from the South, on the promise that elections would be held in two years to elect a unity government.

Then, when it is clear that the Viet Minh will win the elections over the French colonial puppet government set up in the South, the US backs that government in reneging on the promise of elections, at which point, the Viet Minh nationalists form a coalition in the South to retake what they had already won, called the National Liberation Front, in order to reunify the country which the United States had divided under false pretenses, and at that point, the US sides with the Mandarin despot Ngo Dinh Diem against this popular uprising which quickly escalates into an insurgency.

By 1961, the US had been deeply involved for almost two decades. The American conflict with Ho Chi Minh begins in 1945.

During WW2 I believe Ho Chi Minh got some American aid for fighting against the Japanese, though I could be misremembering this.

Indeed, the Vietnamese nationalists were America's stalwart allies against the Japanese, before they were betrayed in the interests of appeasing the French Colonial Empire.

The relationship goes all the way back the Paris Peace Conference 1919, when Woodrow Wilson invoked Self Determination, and the Vietnamese nationalists naively took it to heart.

Warning: rambling post.

Backstabbing sometimes earns bad karma.

I have not done much reading on Vietnamese/French/American conflict especially before JFK so don't take this as gospel. As I understand, FDR was not going to help the French reconquer their Indochinese holdings. But they were able to sucker Truman to give them the military aid needed to do so. I've never understood why.

Ho Chi Min, and most Vietnamese were seeking independence from their French invaders. We were already allies of the Vietnamese. The French did not have the resources for their reconquest without American aid. The North Vietnamese only sought Soviet and Chinese support because they needed it the same way the French needed it from us. Vietnam and China are traditionally enemies. But if our government just had to be stupid why did it not push against the corruption South Vietnamese leadership? It probably would not have made a difference but I think most South Vietnamese were not interested in being under the North Vietnamese government. But living under a corrupt Southern government wasn't good either.

[jbird4049]

Okay Nero, just keep that lawn looking fabulous.

It's looking pretty fabulous so far, I do have some dog pee spots to deal with, but I've trained the dogs to basically pee in one of three areas which are out of the way so that they aren't impacting the centre stage. At this point, were past the corn gluten and I just put the iron supplement down, we've been getting some regular spring rains, so it's already quite lush.

The problem we have here is that the unwashed have-nots keep increasing while the haves keep decreasing and both are separated by an increasingly terrified group of the havish realizing they've fucked.

It doesn't matter what we want; we are not going to outmaneuver that storm, which could be just a tropical depression or a category 5 hurricane. Who knows?

Well a tropical depression would be OK, I mean, it's good for your lawn, you don't want it to brown out, gotta have some rain, but if things get too wet and people start going Bolshie, well you just chuck those fucking clowns out of a helicopter; problem solved.

Don't fret, son, if some troublemakers ever did try to incite some sort of Bolshevist uprising, we would kill every last one of them, so be at peace.

You can just kick back on your deck with a vodka martini, maybe some wine and antipasto, and just enjoy the fabulousness of your lawn, don't worry about all that other shit, we got this.

On the subject of lawns, when I have had them between the gophers, deer, and the blasted snails...feh. Oh well. Still love gardening, but if I could just find a way to make French snails extinct.

[Smitty-48]

During WW2 I believe Ho Chi Minh got some American aid for fighting against the Japanese, though I could be misremembering this.

Indeed, the Vietnamese nationalists were America's stalwart allies against the Japanese, before they were betrayed in the interests of appeasing the French Colonial Empire.

The relationship goes all the way back the Paris Peace Conference 1919, when Woodrow Wilson invoked Self Determination, and the Vietnamese nationalists naively took it to heart.

Backstabbing sometimes earns bad karma.

I have not done much reading on Vietnamese/French/American conflict especially before JFK so don't take this as gospel. As I understand, FDR was not going to help the French reconquer their Indochinese holdings. But they were able to sucker Truman to give them the military aid needed to do so. I've never understood why.

Ho Chi Min, and most Vietnamese were seeking independence from their French invaders. We were already allies of the Vietnamese. The French did not have the resources for their reconquest without American aid. The North Vietnamese only sought Soviet and Chinese support because they needed it the same way the French needed it from us. Vietnam and China are traditionally enemies. But if our government just had to be stupid why did it not push against the corruption South Vietnamese leadership? It probably would not have made a difference but I think most South Vietnamese were not interested in being under the North Vietnamese government. But living under a corrupt Southern government wasn't good either.

Well that's because FDR was a Champagne Socialist Commie Sympathizer who thought Stalin was a Great Man, he may have allowed the FBI to persecute Commies, but that was only to keep J. Edgar from coming after him and his even more Commie sympathizing lesbian wife.

Truman was from the Right wing of the Democrat party, it's not that he was eager to get into bed with the French, he was just eager to disassociate the Democrat party with all these Dirty Thirties Pinkos, hence the Domino Theory and associated Truman Doctrine.

[jbird4049]

Indeed, the Vietnamese nationalists were America's stalwart allies against the Japanese, before they were betrayed in the interests of appeasing the French Colonial Empire.

The relationship goes all the way back the Paris Peace Conference 1919, when Woodrow Wilson invoked Self Determination, and the Vietnamese nationalists naively took it to heart.

Backstabbing sometimes earns bad karma.

I have not done much reading on Vietnamese/French/American conflict especially before JFK so don't take this as gospel. As I understand, FDR was not going to help the French reconquer their Indochinese holdings. But they were able to sucker Truman to give them the military aid needed to do so. I've never understood why.

Ho Chi Min, and most Vietnamese were seeking independence from their French invaders. We were already allies of the Vietnamese. The French did not have the resources for their reconquest without American aid. The North Vietnamese only sought Soviet and Chinese support because they needed it the same way the French needed it from us. Vietnam and China are traditionally enemies. But if our government just had to be stupid why did it not push against the corruption South Vietnamese leadership? It probably would not have made a difference but I think most South Vietnamese were not interested in being under the North Vietnamese government. But living under a corrupt Southern government wasn't good either.

Well that's because FDR was a Champagne Socialist Commie Sympathizer who thought Stalin was a Great Man, he may have allowed the FBI to persecute Commies, but that was only to keep J. Edgar from coming after him and his even more Commie sympathizing lesbian wife.

Truman was from the Right wing of the Democrat party, it's not that he was eager to get into bed with the French, he was just eager to disassociate the Democrat party with all these Dirty Thirties Pinkos, hence the Domino Theory and the Truman Doctrine.

I can understand why appearances would matter. That's half of politics. It just helped to prolong a war though including 50,000 American dead.

[Smitty-48]

Backstabbing sometimes earns bad karma.

I have not done much reading on Vietnamese/French/American conflict especially before JFK so don't take this as gospel. As I understand, FDR was not going to help the French reconquer their Indochinese holdings. But they were able to sucker Truman to give them the military aid needed to do so. I've never understood why.

Ho Chi Min, and most Vietnamese were seeking independence from their French invaders. We were already allies of the Vietnamese. The French did not have the resources for their reconquest without American aid. The North Vietnamese only sought Soviet and Chinese support because they needed it the same way the French needed it from us. Vietnam and China are traditionally enemies. But if our government just had to be stupid why did it not push against the corruption South Vietnamese leadership? It probably would not have made a difference but I think most South Vietnamese were not interested in being under the North Vietnamese government. But living under a corrupt Southern government wasn't good either.

Well that's because FDR was a Champagne Socialist Commie Sympathizer who thought Stalin was a Great Man, he may have allowed the FBI to persecute Commies, but that was only to keep J. Edgar from coming after him and his even more Commie sympathizing lesbian wife.

Truman was from the Right wing of the Democrat party, it's not that he was eager to get into bed with the French, he was just eager to disassociate the Democrat party with all these Dirty Thirties Pinkos, hence the Domino Theory and the Truman Doctrine.

I can understand why appearances would matter. That's half of politics. It just helped to prolong a war though including 50,000 American dead.

58,220 American dead, but it wasn't Truman who prolonged the war, when the Viet Minh forced the French capitulation in the wake of Dien Bien Phu, and America stepped in to try to spoil that victory and prop up Diem as a despot, Eisenhower was President; 1954.

Eisenhower balked at sending US forces to reinforce the French, that was on the table, but presciently, he said ""I cannot conceive of a greater tragedy for America than to get heavily involved now in an all-out war in any of those regions.", none the less, he bought the Domino Theory, that was all part of his Domino Theory speech, propping up the colonial proxy was the alternative to putting US boots on the ground.

[jbird4049]

Well that's because FDR was a Champagne Socialist Commie Sympathizer who thought Stalin was a Great Man, he may have allowed the FBI to persecute Commies, but that was only to keep J. Edgar from coming after him and his even more Commie sympathizing lesbian wife.

Truman was from the Right wing of the Democrat party, it's not that he was eager to get into bed with the French, he was just eager to disassociate the Democrat party with all these Dirty Thirties Pinkos, hence the Domino Theory and the Truman Doctrine.

I can understand why appearances would matter. That's half of politics. It just helped to prolong a war though including 50,000 American dead.

58,220 American dead, but it wasn't Truman who prolonged the war, when the Viet Minh forced the French capitulation in the wake of Dien Bien Phu, and America stepped in to try to spoil that victory and prop up Diem as a despot, Eisenhower was President; 1954.

Fair enough. Truman still could have not propped up the French, and why was supporting a corrupt South Vietnamese government good for? Both look like throwing good money after bad.

[Smitty-48]

I can understand why appearances would matter. That's half of politics. It just helped to prolong a war though including 50,000 American dead.

58,220 American dead, but it wasn't Truman who prolonged the war, when the Viet Minh forced the French capitulation in the wake of Dien Bien Phu, and America stepped in to try to spoil that victory and prop up Diem as a despot, Eisenhower was President; 1954.

Fair enough. Truman still could have not propped up the French, and why was supporting a corrupt South Vietnamese government good for? Both look like throwing good money after bad.

There was no South Vietnamese government at this point, the French were the colonial government, the Viet Minh were the shadow nationalist government in waiting, but Vietnam was still one country at this point. "South Vietnam" doesn't come into existence until after the French are defeated on the battlefield and there is a "Peace Conference" at Geneva, at this conference, the Americans apply massive pressure to the Soviets and Chinese to allow for a "South Vietnam" in the interim, until such time as there can be "free and fair elections" to determine a unity government. The US has no intention of following through, this is just a ruse to get the Viet Minh to withdraw from the South, which they control at this point, the Soviets and Chinese basically sell the Viet Minh down the river to appease the Americans.

The Viet Minh despise the Chinese and distrust the Soviets, but they have no other benefactors, so they don't have much choice but to trust in the process and prepare to try to win the elections. When the United States renegs on the deal, this is a massive betrayal, this is where the rage comes from, which eventually gets hurled relentlessly into those 58,220 unsuspecting American boys a decade later. They had no reference as to what had happened, they had no concept of the enraged hornets nest that they were walking into.

The Viet Minh fought for almost a decade to free the country from the French, it was the moment of their greatest triumph, through mud and blood to the green fields beyond, then America comes in and steals their country from them, by underhanded subterfuge, by the time American boots hit the ground, payback is a bitch.

For the Vietnamese nationalists, it was no "Police Action", it was total war for national liberation, by any means necessary, no quarter asked none given, to the last man woman and child.

Washington had essentially put American troops in the position of the being the Nazis invading the Soviet Union, every engagement they marched into, a little Stalingrad, you kill them all, you wipe them out, regiment after regiment, and they just keep coming back with a new regiment, and even after America had killed 3.3 million Vietnamese in a de facto holocaust, they still wouldn't quit, hardcore of the hardcore, in the all time pantheon of the hardcore, them Vietnamese nationalists. But of course, the Vietnamese had been fighting this war, for a thousand years, against the Chinese, the Japanese, the French, and finally the Americans; usque ad finem, victory or death.

Ya gotta fuckin' love em, some of the greatest fuckin' warfighters, of all time. Greeks, Romans, Mongols, whatevs, they ain't got nothing on the Vietnamese, the Americans just had no concept, of who they were fucking with. The Long War, you say? Yeah, the Vietnamese pretty much invented that. When you say that in the West, you mean decades, when they say that in Indochina, they mean centuries.

When the Marines hit the beaches at Da Nang in 64', their enemy had been fighting for national liberation, since before William the Conquerer had hit the beaches at Dover.

[clubgop]

When did you become a liberal stooge? Private prisions dont thrill me but profit aint got nothing on the lobbying of public employee unions that own the Democrats. Break these unions, I get rid of private prisons tomorrow.

According to you, I've been a liberal stooge my whole life.

Now, here's the super duper fun part about not being a slave to an ideology. Not only don't I have to have their handle in my online moniker, but I also don't have to agree 100% with anyone's version of cool.

I can literally loathe, hate and be disgusted by public employee unions AND like clean water & air at the same time.

Truly.

I've always been against public unions.... do try and keep up.

But, libertarians and republicans lose me when they say fuck the EPA and settle it in court. Sure..... after years and years tied up in legislation, some judge somewhere agrees that Too Big To Fail, Inc. really did fuck up the water supply and kill thousands with their poison. They should pay tens of dollars to the families of those victims.

Boo fucking hoo. I want companies to clean up their mess. I require my kids to clean up their mess, but BIG COAL cries "wahhhhhhhhhhh, we can't afford shit if we have to clean up our mess!!!!!!!!!"

And republitards are all like, "Don't worry, we got you.... a few sick people are no worries... we'll tie 'em up in court."

The super duper fun part is you accomplish nothing. Your the one that won't compromise, your the one trying to act like people arw your children and you can rule over them as you wish. Any point of disagreement on the EPA means we want dirty air and water. No, but here is where I blow your mind. The national EPA is worthless fuck em, they are the ones in bed with the big companies. Local and state agencies are vicious towards the actual individuals responsible. But I know federalism confuses you. You want a one stop shop to bitchabout everything and the wonder why its too bloated to axcomplish anything and then like a typical liberal your solution is more government. You can say your against public unions all you want but you do nothing to stop them. In fact you are for policies that make them grow. Consequences, every policy has them, do try and keep up.

[heydaralon]

Okay Nero, just keep that lawn looking fabulous.

It's looking pretty fabulous so far, I do have some dog pee spots to deal with, but I've trained the dogs to basically pee in one of three areas which are out of the way so that they aren't impacting the centre stage. At this point, were past the corn gluten and I just put the iron supplement down, we've been getting some regular spring rains, so it's already quite lush.

The problem we have here is that the unwashed have-nots keep increasing while the haves keep decreasing and both are separated by an increasingly terrified group of the havish realizing they've fucked.

It doesn't matter what we want; we are not going to outmaneuver that storm, which could be just a tropical depression or a category 5 hurricane. Who knows?

Well a tropical depression would be OK, I mean, it's good for your lawn, you don't want it to brown out, gotta have some rain, but if things get too wet and people start going Bolshie, well you just chuck those fucking clowns out of a helicopter; problem solved.

Don't fret, son, if some troublemakers ever did try to incite some sort of Bolshevist uprising, we would kill every last one of them, so be at peace.

You can just kick back on your deck with a vodka martini, maybe some wine and antipasto, and just enjoy the fabulousness of your lawn, don't worry about all that other shit, we got this.

You can't be serious. Dog piss will not mess up a lawn. I have been doing close at least 12 hours of yardwork a week for my parents and I piss in the lawn all the time. For a guy, pissing outside beats pissing into the finest gold plated toilet any day of the week, so don't deny your dog that freedom. Grass is pretty resilient. It can die from heat and turn brown, but once you get it green, as long you keep it watered and don't pour motor oil on it, it will be fine. I'm a bit disappointed that your effete yard sensibilities are clouding your judgment.