Nationwide Arrests for Opioid Fraud & Prescription Abuse

[SuburbanFarmer]

Yes let's expand the war on drugs that's the ticket.

I don't want the government going after the users. I want the cartels stopped, or the middlemen pressured into stopping the behavior. What would you suggest?

Surrender to the fact that people have free will and what is being done is all that can be done without going into draconian hysterics. Haven't we seen this movie before.

"Let demand grow insatiably while we spend ever increasing resources to fight a market black, white, or puce, that raise to meet it." Yeah that ends well.

Stop strawmanning me. I never called for anything draconian, and I oppose arresting doctors without a high bar of evidence.

I would like to hear your ideas to stop millions of kids from dying. That'd be great.

[heydaralon]

Does it need to be a 'militant government action' to reduce over prescription of pain meds? I don't like the idea of the government arresting doctors without a high bar of evidence.

That said, the change needs to happen somehow, and since we will never dare to threaten the mighty drug makers, that leaves very few options.

You keep trying to differentiate between the evil corporations, and the innocent addicts. The demand from the addicts fuels the corporations, and this is literally the most innocuous way to fill this market role without people cutting each other's heads off on video. Please tell me a way to get people to stop wanting to use drugs. Barring that, its either Pfizer or Sinaloa Cartel.

The addicts don't start out looking for the drug. The drug is ordered for them by a trusted physician given the mystical power of healing over their bodies. In the case of kids, their parents order them directly to take it. They never had a choice.

Hmm. I had pain pills when my wisdom teeth were taken out. They gave me about 12 of them. Doctors are fairly reluctant to prescribe to minors much to my chagrin in high school. I don't have the stats, and I don't know if you do, but this idea that doctors are getting kids hooked on smack in record numbers seems like the kind of bullshit scare stories I used to hear in youth group. It probably has happened, but that is not where most of their business comes from. And I'm not demonizing the addicts, I'm just not convinced in this line you are trying to balance. The end result of this crusade if it is successful, and surely you have to know this, is that people will just switch back to heroin, and that people with legitimate pain will not get the medicine they need because doctors will be too scared to prescribe it. I genuinely do not care if an adult not on welfare and not robbing is doing pain pills heroin or whatever. Its not my business. Okee expressed concern about the medicaid fraud aspect of this, which would be a good discussion to have. But this fear mongering is putting people in prison for decades and sick people pain relief. You told me you voted libertarian. You know all these arguments and should not be falling for this weak shit. This is one of the main things libertarians are right on. It seems like you are the one clutching pearls in this thread.

[MilSpecs]

The addicts don't start out looking for the drug. The drug is ordered for them by a trusted physician given the mystical power of healing over their bodies. In the case of kids, their parents order them directly to take it. They never had a choice.

There's an alarming trend among mothers now where they're so frightened their kids will get addicted to painkillers that they're refusing to give them after surgery or for very painful medical conditions. It's become a moral panic.

[heydaralon]

I don't want the government going after the users. I want the cartels stopped, or the middlemen pressured into stopping the behavior. What would you suggest?

Surrender to the fact that people have free will and what is being done is all that can be done without going into draconian hysterics. Haven't we seen this movie before.

"Let demand grow insatiably while we spend ever increasing resources to fight a market black, white, or puce, that raise to meet it." Yeah that ends well.

Stop strawmanning me. I never called for anything draconian, and I oppose arresting doctors without a high bar of evidence.

I would like to hear your ideas to stop millions of kids from dying. That'd be great.

millions of kids aren't dying lol. 51,000 worldwide died in 2013. You really are clutching your pearls GCF. OMG those evil drug companies are selling drugs to kids and getting them addicted. You are usually the one who calls people out for falling for media scare stories. And more thousands of people probably have died in the past because they bought dirty heroin instead of medicinal level oxy.

[heydaralon]

Lol I just want to point out GCF that you stated that just because a few refugees out of several hundred thousand did violent shit that number was insignificant. Now out of the tens of millions of worldwide opioid users, when 30,000 or so die every year, you are screaming this is the end of the world. Come on man. I like you, but this is truly ridiculous. Turn off Nancy Grace and Dateline and do some critical thinking.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Surrender to the fact that people have free will and what is being done is all that can be done without going into draconian hysterics. Haven't we seen this movie before.

"Let demand grow insatiably while we spend ever increasing resources to fight a market black, white, or puce, that raise to meet it." Yeah that ends well.

Stop strawmanning me. I never called for anything draconian, and I oppose arresting doctors without a high bar of evidence.

I would like to hear your ideas to stop millions of kids from dying. That'd be great.

millions of kids aren't dying lol. 51,000 worldwide died in 2013. You really are clutching your pearls GCF. OMG those evil drug companies are selling drugs to kids and getting them addicted. You are usually the one who calls people out for falling for media scare stories. And more thousands of people probably have died in the past because they bought dirty heroin instead of medicinal level oxy.

You're right, that was a hipshot number. Turns out it's around 13,000/yr in America.

https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/data/heroin.html

Let the record show that I have revised my statement to "tens of thousands".

[SuburbanFarmer]

Lol I just want to point out GCF that you stated that just because a few refugees out of several hundred thousand did violent shit that number was insignificant. Now out of the tens of millions of worldwide opioid users, when 30,000 or so die every year, you are screaming this is the end of the world. Come on man. I like you, but this is truly ridiculous. Turn off Nancy Grace and Dateline and do some critical thinking.

Not the end of the world at all, and (for at least the fifth time), I don't want the government to ban anything, or arrest doctors.

But something needs to change here.

[SuburbanFarmer]

The addicts don't start out looking for the drug. The drug is ordered for them by a trusted physician given the mystical power of healing over their bodies. In the case of kids, their parents order them directly to take it. They never had a choice.

There's an alarming trend among mothers now where they're so frightened their kids will get addicted to painkillers that they're refusing to give them after surgery or for very painful medical conditions. It's become a moral panic.

Honestly, that's probably for the best. People don't die of temporary pain. Chronic pain, sure.

[Okeefenokee]

Just on anecdotal experience, I don't agree with you either. I had surgeries and injuries when I was a teen and got a lot of pain pills, and I loved taking them, but when they ran out I didn't have any issues.

But for argument, I'll wait until you present evidence that most addicts start as legitimate users rather than recreational users who do it too long.

There are many studies on this, but I have no intention of finding them on my phone. I'll get back to you.

Here ya go:

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/ ... heroin-use

Of people entering treatment for heroin addiction who began abusing opioids in the 1960s, more than 80 percent started with heroin. Of those who began abusing opioids in the 2000s, 75 percent reported that their first opioid was a prescription drug. Examining national-level general population heroin data (including those in and not in treatment), nearly 80 percent of heroin users reported using prescription opioids prior to heroin (Jones, 2013; Muhuri et al., 2013).

It doesn't say they started using for pain, and then became addicted. It says they started with pills, and then went to cheap heroine when they couldn't afford the pills, or the doctor cut them off.

http://archive.samhsa.gov/data/2k13/Dat ... e-2013.pdf

Recent increases in the annual number of persons in the
United States who used heroin for the first time have
raised concerns that prior nonmedical use of prescription
pain relievers may have led to heroin use in many people.
This study examines the recent trends in heroin initiation,
including the role of nonmedical prescription pain reliever
use in the heroin trend among persons aged 12 to 49.
Pooling data from the National Survey on Drug Use and
Health (NSDUH) conducted annually from 2002 through
2011, the study finds that the recent (12 months preceding
interview) heroin incidence rate was 19 times higher among
those who reported prior nonmedical pain reliever (NMPR)
use than among those who did not (0.39 vs. 0.02 percent).
In contrast, the recent NMPR incidence rate was almost 2
times higher among those who reported prior heroin use
than who did not (2.8 vs. 1.6 percent). Four out of five
recent heroin initiates (79.5 percent) previously used NMPR
whereas only 1.0 percent of recent NMPR initiates had
prior use of heroin. However, the vast majority of NMPR
users have not progressed to heroin use. Only 3.6 percent of
NMPR initiates had initiated heroin use within the 5-year
period following first NMPR use. The study contributes
important new data to improve understanding of the role
of prior NMPR use in initiation of heroin use in the U.S.
general population

Still not a study of what kind of users these people are. It's saying a lot of people who use heroine now got started on pills. It says only 3.6% of pill users transitioned to heroine. It doesn't say that the pill users started on pills for legitimate reasons and got addicted. Neither of those address the issue Speaker and I brought up.

Are people falling into addiction as a result of normal pain management, or are people going to pills recreationaly and becoming addicted?

[Okeefenokee]

Does it need to be a 'militant government action' to reduce over prescription of pain meds? I don't like the idea of the government arresting doctors without a high bar of evidence.

That said, the change needs to happen somehow, and since we will never dare to threaten the mighty drug makers, that leaves very few options.

You keep trying to differentiate between the evil corporations, and the innocent addicts. The demand from the addicts fuels the corporations, and this is literally the most innocuous way to fill this market role without people cutting each other's heads off on video. Please tell me a way to get people to stop wanting to use drugs. Barring that, its either Pfizer or Sinaloa Cartel.

The addicts don't start out looking for the drug. The drug is ordered for them by a trusted physician given the mystical power of healing over their bodies. In the case of kids, their parents order them directly to take it. They never had a choice.

You haven't backed up that claim.