Europe, Boring Until it's Not

[TheReal_ND]

You read Russian, right, ssu?

Nope, I don't. Very few Finns do speak/read Russian.

Have to do some work, I'll respond a bit later.

Oh, I misremembered then. Didn't think most Finns spoke Russian, just thought you did. And thanks for your perspective.

This is a joke, right?

The Ottomans were never "European". They were a Middle Eastern/African empire that conquered all they way up to Austria, in the late middle ages. They were invited to the European 'table' as a peacemaking move, not because any part of them was ever European in culture, religion, or even (mostly) geography.

This would be the equivalent of calling Morocco "European" because the moors conquered the southern portion of the Iberian peninsula.

Turks came from Central Asia, not the Middle East or Africa. They just conquered those places. And Osman (the dynastic forefather of the Ottoman dynasty) was simply one of the many chieftains/nobles who carved up a piece of Anatolia for himself when the Seljuks who had invaded three hundred years earlier, collapsed. His descendents just kept on taking land away from Byzantium.

Anyway, if people not coming from Europe yet settle in the European part of Eurasia are not really European, I guess Hungarians aren't European, either? Given how they too came from the Central Asian steppes. Are Turks Europeans? Depends on your definition. For example, Russians generally don't refer to themselves as European, for example, despite most of them living and all of them originating on the Western, European part of their country. For a long time, Turks have identified themselves much more with Western secularism, democracy and civil rights than with dreams of a return to the Ottoman caliphate. Despite your claims, they're are not an "entirely Asian" culture. Not even sure you knew what you meant when you wrote that.

It was my understanding that for a long time Russia regarded itself as European and attempted to emulate European culture as close as they could in higher society.

[TheOneX]

Turkey is kind of a European cousin. It's culture has always bridged the gap between European culture and Middle-Eastern culture. This has been the case ever since Greece, Turkey is home to Troy afterall. To say without a doubt they belong in Europe is about as correct as saying without a doubt that they don't. Where they "belong" waxes and wanes over the course of time and culture. As the Ottoman Empire Turkey was probably more European than at any other point in time in their history. That was a long time ago though, currently they are trending towards Middle-Eastern. If Turkey would have been accepted into the EU fully or partially back when they started expressing their interest they probably would be more European now than they even were during the Ottoman Empire.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Look at the eastern border of turkey and tell me that Europe extends right to the Syrian border. This is nonsense.

[TheReal_ND]

Look at the eastern border of turkey and tell me that Europe extends right to the Syrian border. This is nonsense.

It constitutes part of this European geography quiz.
http://online.seterra.com/en/vgp/3007

[TheReal_ND]

Albanians are announcing a secessionist "Illyrian" movement In Macedonia.

"There is another part of Illyria, some call it Macedonia, some call it FYROM, but I say Illyria"
"We will take up arms and fight for their independence, we are not afraid of their army"

there is a place called Ilirida in what you call Macedonia,or Fyrom, or whatever.They want full rights.And if the lying people of our neighbour country don't do a thing,I say all albanian parties get around one and only table and leave aside their differences and fight for Iliridas rights,if not even a referendum"

[TheOneX]

Look at the eastern border of turkey and tell me that Europe extends right to the Syrian border. This is nonsense.

It constitutes part of this European geography quiz.
http://online.seterra.com/en/vgp/3007

Geographically part of Turkey is in Europe, just like part of Egypt is in Asia. The Middle-East is not a geographical region, it is a cultural and ethnic region.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Look at the eastern border of turkey and tell me that Europe extends right to the Syrian border. This is nonsense.

It constitutes part of this European geography quiz.
http://online.seterra.com/en/vgp/3007

Geographically part of Turkey is in Europe, just like part of Egypt is in Asia. The Middle-East is not a geographical region, it is a cultural and ethnic region.

...which is located on the Asian continent. And has a completely distinct culture from Europe.

Would you consider Egypt to be an Asian or African country?

[Speaker to Animals]

For a very long time, the Turks controlled territory pretty deep into Europe. Greece gained independence only in 1830. Also Macedonia, Albania, and a few other Baltic states were part of their empire. Crimea and parts of Ukraine as well.

Culturally, many Turks are more European than any thing else.

[SuburbanFarmer]

For a very long time, the Turks controlled territory pretty deep into Europe. Greece gained independence only in 1830. Also Macedonia, Albania, and a few other Baltic states were part of their empire. Crimea and parts of Ukraine as well.

Culturally, many Turks are more European than any thing else.

I don't doubt that there are some. There are many Americans that are more South American than anything else, but that doesn't mean that we share a culture with Ecuador.

[ssu]

It was my understanding that for a long time Russia regarded itself as European and attempted to emulate European culture as close as they could in higher society.

Basically Russia has had an ambivalent stance towards the West. It never has made up it's mind about it.

First there are the "Slavophiles", now who are in control, those that see everything good coming from Mother Russia, it's roots in Rus and Byzantium and everything awfull and decadent coming from the West. Then there are the Westernizers, the Zapadniks. Although Zapadniks refer to certain intellectuals who were active in the middle of the 19th Century, the "Westernizing" and it's opposite, "Russification" of Russia has gone on for a long time. Let's not forget that one of most important persons in Russian history, Peter the Great, was definately a westernizer.

A caricature depicting Peter the Great cutting the beards off the Russian aristocracy...and putting them to wear Western clothes:


I would consider Russia European ...because it definately isn't an Asian culture. Some Tsaikowski's music or Russian literature classic are definately not example of Asian culture. West European Russia isn't, but East European it is. The term eurasian is a quite late comer of a term used usually after the post-Soviet times. Let's remember that earlier Russia was thought of as part of the West.