The Psych Ward: The Shadow

[Smitty-48]

Thing was, the NLF had simply dragged the Americans down into the mire, the strength of the NLF was their ruthlessness, they were perfectly prepared to kill babies, and anybody else who got in their way, and they knew that the Americans would have to match their ruthlessness to beat them, but they knew the American public could not stomach it, so it was a strategy, and it was very deliberate.

[GloryofGreece]

Nazi Germany was every bit as ruthless and they sure as shit killed women, children, and babies, yet we beat them and we "stomached" the fire bombings. In a specific scenario like My Lai I would think a significant amount of Americans wouldn't be down for killing that way and raping. Whether it was during the Civil War or the First or Second World Wars. That doesn't mean it didn't or wouldn't happen. Only that it shouldn't. There are lines in the sand, at least for most non pathological people. Otherwise, why don't we nuke every enemy, enslave the leftovers, and sell any of the women as sex toys?

[Smitty-48]

Information Warfare was effective in Vietnam, because the media was off the leash for the first time, Americans never saw any atrocities in the Second World War, there was a total censorship blackout, the government even censored the soldiers letters home to their families.

[Smitty-48]

In fact, if you had started going around stirring up trouble about "massacres", during the Second World War, you would have been rounded up by the FBI and held incommunicado for sedition.

[GloryofGreece]

I think we are in basic agreement that the public won't take shit it use to and maybe never would have going back a 100 years. So maybe another interesting question is, should there ever really be a media blackout? And I think Dan touched on this in several CS episodes and mentioned FDR started allowing photos of dead GIs and caskets etc. etc. b/c he wanted the people to at least try to grasp the dire the nature of the situation...war that is. I think most people would take civilizations dying if they believed in the cause. Rapes and killing babies, no not so much. Either way let the Republic know.

[Smitty-48]

I'm not in agreement with that, could declare a war measures state of emergency tomorrow, and 99% of the populace would comply, the 1% that didn't would get stomped on from a very great height. No problemo.

[Smitty-48]

They could have done that with Vietnam too, but the issue was that they did not want to admit that Vietnam was as big of a war and as much of an intractable one as it was, they were trying to downplay Vietnam was being no big deal, so they didn't declare a state of emergency, but that was simply a political issue, if at the time, the whole thing had blown up into a much bigger war, with the Soviets directly involved, then I would submit America would have been back in total lockdown, as it was in World War Two.

[GloryofGreece]

I'm not in agreement with that, could declare a war measures state of emergency tomorrow, and 99% of the populace would comply, the 1% that didn't would get stomped on from a very great height. No problemo.

So why haven't we yet? Are you for as you put it, "a total media blackout". (And I don't think WWII qualified as such, info got out). When was America under "marshal law"? Not since the 19th century.

[Smitty-48]

I'm not in agreement with that, could declare a war measures state of emergency tomorrow, and 99% of the populace would comply, the 1% that didn't would get stomped on from a very great height. No problemo.

So why haven't we yet? Are you for as you put it, "a total media blackout". (And I don't think WWII qualified as such, info got out)

There's no war big enough to warrant it, but tell you what, if the Russians come across the trace in Europe and NATO Article V is invoked, there will be a total lockdown, make no mistake.

[Fife]

Information Warfare was effective in Vietnam, because the media was off the leash for the first time, Americans never saw any atrocities in the Second World War, there was a total censorship blackout, the government even censored the soldiers letters home to their families.

I remember some of the stories some of my great uncles and great uncle in-laws (my grandmother was part of a family of 11) told at the Thanksgiving football parties back in the 70s. Some of the oldsters yap yap yapped, others said "shush up, the kids are in here."

My Jr High ag teacher was one of the guys who was invited to hike it out of Bataan; and he talked about it with us 14-15 year olds, at least in small groups.

I know a whole bunch of Vietnam vets, and at least two (AFAIK, from the ones who will talk to me about it) POWs.

I agree with you that the total censorship wall fell sometime between 1945 and 1960. (Not that information was ever free, pre-1945 or otherwise.)