Most Important Battle for Western Civilization?

[Alexander PhiAlipson]

Any roughly accurate numbers on how many Muslims invaded France and what they faced with the Hammer? Seems like its fashionable to downplay its significance today labeling it a "raiding party" more than a real army/invasion etc. Similar how the Mongols never really invaded Europe " in force" per se.?

If you want to upset Alexander, call it a "reconnaissance in force".

[Hwen Hoshino]

Most important?

Hands down The Siege and Sack of Baghdad and slaughter of muslims by Hulagu Khan 1258.

Practically set back the worst competitor of the West for centuries and as a consequence turned the fertile farm lands into a desert for ever. The depopulation was huge. Culture declined. With the new Mongol rule Muslim focus shifted towards the north east. It probably gave Europe a respite for a couple of hundred years and weakened what we now call the ME in way they still haven't recovered from.

http://lostislamichistory.com/mongols/

Could you explain how fertile farmland turned into desert? Sounds pretty Star Trek if it was done by the Mongols.

They killed somewhere up to 2.000.000 people and destroyed the irrigation system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_ ... al_decline

Some historians believe that the Mongol invasion destroyed much of the irrigation infrastructure that had sustained Mesopotamia for many millennia. Canals were cut as a military tactic and never repaired. So many people died or fled that neither the labor nor the organization were sufficient to maintain the canal system. It broke down or silted up. This theory was advanced by historian Svatopluk Souček in his 2000 book, A History of Inner Asia.
Other historians point to soil salination as the culprit in the decline in agriculture

And how did this help Christianity. It's not like a guarantee that a \more fertile country would attack the west. Civil Wars were incredibly common.

[C-Mag]

Any roughly accurate numbers on how many Muslims invaded France and what they faced with the Hammer? Seems like its fashionable to downplay its significance today labeling it a "raiding party" more than a real army/invasion etc. Similar how the Mongols never really invaded Europe " in force" per se.?

If you want to upset Alexander, call it a "reconnaissance in force".

A map of a Reconnaissance in Force

[C-Mag]

Any roughly accurate numbers on how many Muslims invaded France and what they faced with the Hammer? Seems like its fashionable to downplay its significance today labeling it a "raiding party" more than a real army/invasion etc. Similar how the Mongols never really invaded Europe " in force" per se.?

They estimate 20-80K, 50,000 seems to a number most historians are ok with.

[GloryofGreece]

Any roughly accurate numbers on how many Muslims invaded France and what they faced with the Hammer? Seems like its fashionable to downplay its significance today labeling it a "raiding party" more than a real army/invasion etc. Similar how the Mongols never really invaded Europe " in force" per se.?

They estimate 20-80K, 50,000 seems to a number most historians are ok with.

Thanks for the figures and graph above. How do you think the French tactically defeated them back then, since no one really had up to that point, right? Did the French outnumber them?

[C-Mag]

Any roughly accurate numbers on how many Muslims invaded France and what they faced with the Hammer? Seems like its fashionable to downplay its significance today labeling it a "raiding party" more than a real army/invasion etc. Similar how the Mongols never really invaded Europe " in force" per se.?

They estimate 20-80K, 50,000 seems to a number most historians are ok with.

Thanks for the figures and graph above. How do you think the French tactically defeated them back then, since no one really had up to that point, right? Did the French outnumber them?

The numbers were about even on both sides.

How did the Franks Win ? MET-TC
Mission - Get the Muslims into a decisive battle and defeat them
Enemy - Arab and Berber Cavalry, well equipped for battle, but poorly equipped operations in Europe in the Fall, had been on an extended campaign
- in early days of the battle Rahmans half or more of Rahmans units are out pillaging, he has to recall them.
Terrain (and weather) - Martel had a good defensive position he chose, unseasonably cold
Troops (available & support) - First generation French Knights, well equipped and rested
Time - Martel can wait around, Rahman cannot, Rahman gets his full army recalled by the 7th day
Civil Considerations - deep inside French Christian territory, locals friendly to Martel

Martel dictated the location and conditions of the Battle. It would not surprise me if Martel used deception and disinformation tactics against the Muslims who highly valued their loot and slaves in their baggage train. Then developed in battle tactics to exploit the greed of the Muslims.

Martel was just a better leader all around than the Muslim leaders deployed against him. Martel was inventive, smart and adaptive. He made adjustments during battles and during campaigns to offset his enemies superior weapons and tactics. Tours was the first real big battle in which French Knights, mounted with heavier armor and stirrups were used against the Muslim Conquistadors. By the campaign of 736 when Muslims again invaded, Charles Martel was fielding armies of Heavy Cavalry.

Note: The bulk of the sources (both Muslim and Christian) on this battle say that Rahman outnumbered Martel from 2 to 1 up to 8 to 1. The most recent sources say it was about even in numbers. Those are the numbers I gave you. Some sources have Rahman at 400,000 men

[BjornP]

Any roughly accurate numbers on how many Muslims invaded France and what they faced with the Hammer? Seems like its fashionable to downplay its significance today labeling it a "raiding party" more than a real army/invasion etc. Similar how the Mongols never really invaded Europe " in force" per se.?

They estimate 20-80K, 50,000 seems to a number most historians are ok with.

Thanks for the figures and graph above. How do you think the French tactically defeated them back then, since no one really had up to that point, right? Did the French outnumber them?

Arab account of the battle (and events leading up to it):

http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/Halsall/ ... ers732.asp

Near the river Owar [Loire], the two great hosts of the two languages and the two creeds were set in array against each other. The hearts of Abderrahman, his captains and his men were filled with wrath and pride, and they were the first to begin to fight. The Moslem horsemen dashed fierce and frequent forward against the battalions of the Franks, who resisted manfully, and many fell dead on either side, until the going down of the sun. Night parted the two armies: but in the grey of the morning the Moslems returned to the battle. Their cavaliers had soon hewn their way into the center of the Christian host. But many of the Moslems were fearful for the safety of the spoil which they had stored in their tents, and a false cry arose in their ranks that some of the enemy were plundering the camp; whereupon several squadrons of the Moslem horsemen rode off to protect their tents. But it seemed as if they fled; and all the host was troubled. And while Abderrahman strove to check their tumult, and to lead them back to battle, the warriors of the Franks came around him, and he was pierced through with many spears, so that he died. Then all the host fled before the enemy, and many died in the flight. . . .

Also on the Fordham sourcebook, there's a source on a pre-Battle of Tours chronicling the Moorish perspective and expectations of the Franks. A case of vastly underestimating one's neighbouring enemies. It would be like if Romans conquered territory up to the borderlands of the Germanic tribes, and then, too late found out that they were actually capable of organizing themselves into vast armies... *cough*

[C-Mag]

They estimate 20-80K, 50,000 seems to a number most historians are ok with.

Thanks for the figures and graph above. How do you think the French tactically defeated them back then, since no one really had up to that point, right? Did the French outnumber them?

Arab account of the battle (and events leading up to it):

This is interesting. A Muslim YouTube Channel gives their own version. He says that Abdul Rahman was sent by the Caliph to avenge the loss of the Muslims at Touloise at the hands of Duke Odo

It's an interesting channel. Several videos on Muslim Spain, he states flat out it was intended to be a military conquest from the start. Not, *cough, a recon in force.

A very nicely done battle map of the battle. The raid on the Islamic baggage train was a planned strategy by Martel, carried out by Duke Odo.

[heydaralon]

Its funny how many muslim academics will always talk about these great battles and stuff that happened 800 years ago. They will always point out how great Islamic society was and how in comparison Europe was a backwater. This entire line of thinking is questionable, but it is very telling that they have to go back hundreds of years before anything their culture produced is not a violent pathetic embarrassment. The Abbasid Caliphate might have been awesome, but you are basically bragging about shit that happened before you were born and crying about shit you witnessed in the present. The west is stumbling at the moment, but Islamic society has been a joke for centuries now. Their only rebuttals are: "Sykes-Picot!" and "The Crusades!"

[Hwen Hoshino]

Its funny how many muslim academics will always talk about these great battles and stuff that happened 800 years ago. They will always point out how great Islamic society was and how in comparison Europe was a backwater. This entire line of thinking is questionable, but it is very telling that they have to go back hundreds of years before anything their culture produced is not a violent pathetic embarrassment. The Abbasid Caliphate might have been awesome, but you are basically bragging about shit that happened before you were born and crying about shit you witnessed in the present. The west is stumbling at the moment, but Islamic society has been a joke for centuries now. Their only rebuttals are: "Sykes-Picot!" and "The Crusades!"

If Iran could just drone civilians along with suspected American terrorist US citizens would also be crying. What does a joke society mean exactly?