Brexit

[Montegriffo]

Some recommended reading...

It was the first time I had been to Northern Ireland since my friend, Bridie, wet herself when a British soldier pointed a gun at her. A bunch of 10-year-olds on a school trip, our bus was searched at the border.

Five years after the Good Friday Agreement (GFA), I was in Belfast again for work. This time there was no border, no indignity and no fear. Hearing my Dublin accent, a man in his sixties asked, “Are you Catholic or Protestant?”

“Neither, I’m atheist!” I said triumphantly.

“Yes, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?”

Religion in Northern Ireland is like the Hotel California, I was told. You can check out, but you can never leave.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/br ... 97406.html

The Irish prime minister says Brexit is fraying relations between Ireland and Britain.

Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said it had also "undermined" the Good Friday Agreement (GFA).

The Good Friday Agreement was signed in 1998 after intense negotiations between the UK government, the Irish government and Northern Ireland political parties.

The UK government says "nothing we agree with the EU will risk a return to a hard border".

The Irish border is one of the biggest sticking points in the Brexit negotiations."Anything that pulls the communities apart in Northern Ireland undermines the Good Friday Agreement, and anything that pulls Britain and Ireland apart undermines that relationship," said Mr Varadkar on RTE's Marian Finucane programme.

Earlier, the chair of the Republic of Ireland's Senate Brexit Committee said a return to a hard border threatened the peace process.

Senator Neale Richmond told pro-Brexit Conservative MP Owen Paterson on BBC Radio 4's Today programme that plans for solving the border dispute using "existing practical systems" was "completely unfeasible".

Brexit talks have reached an impasse over the EU's "backstop" plan, which would see Northern Ireland effectively remaining in the customs union and single market unless alternative arrangements were found to prevent a hard border.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46083327

Brexit is undermining 20 years of peace in Northern Ireland and is fraying relationships between Britain and Ireland, Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has said.

The Irish prime minister gave a stark warning about the state of cross-border relations on Saturday, with just months to go before the UK is due to quit the European Union.

His comments came after another Dublin politician said a return to a hard border threatened the peace process, in a row following reports that a backstop plan was close to being agreed with Brussels.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/irel ... 79811.html

n Northern Ireland, Brexit as economics gives way to Brexit as politics, because stability in Northern Ireland was implicitly dependent on the kind of harmonisation and multilateralism made possible by the EU. Since 1985, Britain and Ireland could be partners more often than opponents, the four freedoms shaped a common approach to outsiders on both islands, and permanent, mutually interchangeable citizenship turned out to be feasible. So queues of lorries in Dover are an economic challenge: queues of lorries in Newry are a constitutional crisis. In the absence of an underpinning commitment to manage and nudge Northern Ireland towards a shared future in which Britishness and Irishness are as seamlessly engaged as possible, the future becomes a matter of fingers crossed and breath held.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/08/0 ... agreement/

[Hastur]

[SuburbanFarmer]

Just a hint, GCF, but you should maybe try and simply google what the Good Friday agreement was before drawing yet another uninformed conclusion.

I’m pretty aware of the concept, and you can appeal to authority all day, but...

Why don’t you tell us what it means to you?

That Northern Ireland would have to actually choose between “Britishness” and “Irishness”?

That they don’t want to admit that breaking Ireland in half and hiding behind the angles might mean they aren’t Irish anymore?

[BjornP]

"Appeal to authority" That’s one way to say you're lazy.

Let me give you a clue: It's not about whether or not NI belongs to UK or RoI or not. Before mocking someone for their supposed failures, understand the actual failure.

[Montegriffo]

Just a hint, GCF, but you should maybe try and simply google what the Good Friday agreement was before drawing yet another uninformed conclusion.

I’m pretty aware of the concept, and you can appeal to authority all day, but...

Why don’t you tell us what it means to you?

That Northern Ireland would have to actually choose between “Britishness” and “Irishness”?

That they don’t want to admit that breaking Ireland in half and hiding behind the angles might mean they aren’t Irish anymore?

That's exactly it. NI has a large minority of Catholics who consider themselves Irish. Many of them carry a ROI passport and don't consider themselves British.
Within this large minority are a small percentage who felt so strongly about not being ruled from Westminster that they fought a violent civil war for 30 years leaving over 3000 people dead.
There were two main issues contained in the Good Friday Agreement that led to them putting down their weapons.
One was a devolved parliament in Stormont which meant NI was no longer under direct British rule. Unfortunately, politics in NI is still so divided that the NI parliament has not sat for over a year due to no working coalition being able to be agreed upon. This has led to a return to direct rule from Westminister as there was no alternative and someone needs to set budgets for government spending, taxation, infrastructure development etc.
The second thing which led to Republicans abandoning their violence was the abolition of the hard border between the two countries. This enabled those ROI passport carrying NI natives to consider themselves a part of a united rather than a divided Ireland. There were no longer barriers to travel, employment and trade between NI and the ROI enforced by the British. The GFA is a compromise which allows NI and ROI to have closer links while protecting the wishes of the majority in NI to remain a part of the UK.

So, due to intransigence between the many sides in NI politics, one of the main pillars holding up the GFA has been temporarily removed (the Stormont parliament) and the other (a soft border) is under threat because of Brexit.

The EU cannot allow a backdoor into the free trade customs union because this could allow products (let's use chlorinated chicken as an example) into the EU.

This intractable situation has led to the backstop clause ( a temporary guarantee that the soft border will remain until a solution is found) which is unacceptable to all sides.

This leads to a situation where a part of the UK is neither in nor out of the EU.
The ROI won't accept it, NI won't accept it, GB won't accept it and the EU won't accept it.

So I will once again offer the problem up to the combined intellect of the MHF to offer a solution...
Preferably one which won't return Ireland to a state of civil war.

[SuburbanFarmer]

NI doesn’t want to be under “direct British rule”. Yet they’re part of the UK, which is leaving the EU. Surprise! You’re under British rule.

Who does NI pay taxes to? Who makes their rules?

This is like Michigan seceding to Canada, and then bitching about a trade deal. Now Canada is wringing it’s hands about having to admit that they now own it.

Realistically though, since 9/11, there’s no way in hell that Ireland would risk becoming a “terrorist state” over border customs. Get your shit together, Britain.

[Montegriffo]

NI doesn’t want to be under “direct British rule”. Yet they’re part of the UK, which is leaving the EU. Surprise! You’re under British rule.
the Catholic, Republican minority don't want direct British rule. The majority Protestant, Unionists wish to stay a part of the UK. Both sides prefer devolved rule from Stormont
Who does NI pay taxes to? Who makes their rules?
Taxes are paid to the NI treasury. Some rules come from the devolved parliament, some from Westminster and some from Brussels.
This is like Michigan seceding to Canada, and then bitching about a trade deal. Now Canada is wringing it’s hands about having to admit that they now own it.

Realistically though, since 9/11, there’s no way in hell that Ireland would risk becoming a “terrorist state” over border customs. Get your shit together, Britain.
A hard border was precisely one of the factors which contributed to the terrorism during the ''troubles'' and is why no return to a hard border is a central part of the GFA.

[SuburbanFarmer]

NI doesn’t want to be under “direct British rule”. Yet they’re part of the UK, which is leaving the EU. Surprise! You’re under British rule.
the Catholic, Republican minority don't want direct British rule. The majority Protestant, Unionists wish to stay a part of the UK. Both sides prefer devolved rule from Stormont
Who does NI pay taxes to? Who makes their rules?
Taxes are paid to the NI treasury. Some rules come from the devolved parliament, some from Westminster and some from Brussels.
This is like Michigan seceding to Canada, and then bitching about a trade deal. Now Canada is wringing it’s hands about having to admit that they now own it.

Realistically though, since 9/11, there’s no way in hell that Ireland would risk becoming a “terrorist state” over border customs. Get your shit together, Britain.
A hard border was precisely one of the factors which contributed to the terrorism during the ''troubles'' and is why no return to a hard border is a central part of the GFA.

And who imposed that hard border?

What was it’s purpose? Customs enforcement, or something else?

[Montegriffo]

NI doesn’t want to be under “direct British rule”. Yet they’re part of the UK, which is leaving the EU. Surprise! You’re under British rule.
the Catholic, Republican minority don't want direct British rule. The majority Protestant, Unionists wish to stay a part of the UK. Both sides prefer devolved rule from Stormont
Who does NI pay taxes to? Who makes their rules?
Taxes are paid to the NI treasury. Some rules come from the devolved parliament, some from Westminster and some from Brussels.
This is like Michigan seceding to Canada, and then bitching about a trade deal. Now Canada is wringing it’s hands about having to admit that they now own it.

Realistically though, since 9/11, there’s no way in hell that Ireland would risk becoming a “terrorist state” over border customs. Get your shit together, Britain.
A hard border was precisely one of the factors which contributed to the terrorism during the ''troubles'' and is why no return to a hard border is a central part of the GFA.

And who imposed that hard border?

What was it’s purpose? Customs enforcement, or something else?

Britain imposed it.
So now do you see why it is so impossible to reinstate.
It is seen as part of a return to full-blown rule from Westminster.

Without a hard border, the security motive to search people crossing the border is gone. With a return to a hard border that necessity returns.

Neither the ROI nor NI and GB (UK) will accept a hard border but the UK cannot leave the EU unless there are border checks.
Are you begining to see how intractable this is yet?

What is your solution?

[SuburbanFarmer]

And who imposed that hard border?

What was it’s purpose? Customs enforcement, or something else?

Britain imposed it.
So now do you see why it is so impossible to reinstate.
It is seen as part of a return to full-blown rule from Westminster.

Without a hard border, the security motive to search people crossing the border is gone. With a return to a hard border that necessity returns.

Neither the ROI nor NI and GB (UK) will accept a hard border but the UK cannot leave the EU unless there are border checks.
Are you begining to see how intractable this is yet?

What is your solution?

2 options:

Take ownership of NI and quit fucking around.

Get NI out of the UK and quit fucking around.

There are no other choices.