Where's an Environmentalist when you need one

[C-Mag]

Sure, man is a predator, man has also been prey, man eats meat, man is vegetarian, man is war-like, man is peaceful.

I think you’re what you’re getting at is that because man has evolved descriptively as a “predator” in some narrow sense, that something normative follows, but that is the essence of the appeal to nature fallacy. They have video game hunting simulations btw

They have farming simulations as well. Do you play them and get fulfillment ?

Frankly I wouldn't expect you to understand embracing man predator lifestyle anymore than I would a herbivore scavenger lifestyle. I don't care if you want to be a Vegan, I think it's weird, but I'm not going to try and stop you. However, Vegans want me to stop killing and eating fresh flesh, why can't they just leave me alone too.

Modern humans are far to removed from their food sources, no matter what they are eating. The Yuppies and hipsters try to feel better by buying at Farmers markets and organic food chains, but that's really more feeling than getting in touch with food sources.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Funny how grass fed beef is always compared to industrial agriculture in terms of impact on critters and the environment, even though the two things aren’t equivalents in scale, it’s like comparing a local organic vegan farm to a factory farm cattle.

It isn't funny.
It is because vegans always bring up the 'good of the environment' using examples of 'organic' veganism without being able to convincingly scale that to the whole human population.

[JohnDonne]

They have video game hunting simulations btw

Best argument against veganism I have ever heard.

If only we could so effectively simulate being human that humanity wasn't necessary, I guess...

Implying it’s not a simulation to walk around the woods in Walmart hunting gear, and a state of the art rifle and imagine communion with early man?

[Montegriffo]

Is it?

Is it reckless? That's a debatable moral question.
Is it inefficient? That's an indisputable reality.

Again, is it?
If vegetable proteins were the 'indisputable' way to maximize health, you would think natural selection would have rid us of carnivores and omnivores by now.
Clearly, you gain some efficiency by eating the hearts of your enemies.

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I'm not getting into a debate about maximizing health.
My argument is environmental, meat uses far more resources in its production.
JD can argue the morals.
StA can argue the health implications.
I'm sticking to arguments about land use, animal welfare and resource management.

I'm not an absolutist, I accept that people are always going to eat meat.
I'd like to see an increase in animal welfare standards and more sustainable resource management.
Higher costs for meat products will lead to reduced consumption.
No one needs to stop eating meat but everyone needs to care more about the quality and most need to reduce their consumption.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

They have video game hunting simulations btw

Best argument against veganism I have ever heard.

If only we could so effectively simulate being human that humanity wasn't necessary, I guess...

Implying it’s not a simulation to walk around the woods in Walmart hunting gear, and a state of the art rifle and imagine communion with early man?

Camouflage and tools. Two things that are 'natural' to humans, with their big ol' brains, fed by super-efficient animal proteins.

Would you like to have the 'no true naturalist' argument?

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Is it reckless? That's a debatable moral question.
Is it inefficient? That's an indisputable reality.

Again, is it?
If vegetable proteins were the 'indisputable' way to maximize health, you would think natural selection would have rid us of carnivores and omnivores by now.
Clearly, you gain some efficiency by eating the hearts of your enemies.

My argument is environmental, meat uses far more resources in its production.

Does it?

If you are making an 'environmental' case, you are making a health case... unless you are devaluing humans, then you are making a moral argument.

We can do either, but not neither.

[Montegriffo]

Yes, it does.
70% of all agricultural land is used to rear animals. When you see a field of wheat you probably think it is going to be used for your daily bread, the fact is, most of it is going to be animal feed.

One of the benefits of a vegetarian diet is a reduction in your impact on the environment. Animals store only a small fraction of the energy they extract from the food they eat, and the rest is wasted as heat. If you eat animal foods, most of the energy in the plants those animals ate has been lost as heat and only a fraction of it reaches you. Eating plants is more efficient, meaning that less of the energy the plants contain is wasted. Ultimately, this means that less land is required to support a population of vegetarians.

All of the energy in most food webs on Earth originates as sunlight. Producers like plants on the first trophic level convert the sunlight they capture into chemical energy. This stored energy is extracted by herbivores on the second trophic level, who use it to sustain their own growth. Carnivores on the third and fourth trophic levels in turn extract stored chemical energy from the herbivores and carnivores they eat. In other words, energy travels upward through the food chain. Any time an organism eats another organism, it is extracting and converting stored chemical energy into a form it can use.

https://sciencing.com/being-vegetarian- ... -3342.html

[JohnDonne]

Best argument against veganism I have ever heard.

If only we could so effectively simulate being human that humanity wasn't necessary, I guess...

Implying it’s not a simulation to walk around the woods in Walmart hunting gear, and a state of the art rifle and imagine communion with early man?

Camouflage and tools. Two things that are 'natural' to humans, with their big ol' brains, fed by super-efficient animal proteins.

Would you like to have the 'no true naturalist' argument?

Must be difficult for you, in having so much insight into being human, that you can’t rape and pillage like humans have always done. Truly laws restraining people is an affront to our humanity.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Yes, it does.
70% of all agricultural land is used to rear animals. When you see a field of wheat you probably think it is going to be used for your daily bread, the fact is, most of it is going to be animal feed.

One of the benefits of a vegetarian diet is a reduction in your impact on the environment. Animals store only a small fraction of the energy they extract from the food they eat, and the rest is wasted as heat. If you eat animal foods, most of the energy in the plants those animals ate has been lost as heat and only a fraction of it reaches you. Eating plants is more efficient, meaning that less of the energy the plants contain is wasted. Ultimately, this means that less land is required to support a population of vegetarians.

All of the energy in most food webs on Earth originates as sunlight. Producers like plants on the first trophic level convert the sunlight they capture into chemical energy. This stored energy is extracted by herbivores on the second trophic level, who use it to sustain their own growth. Carnivores on the third and fourth trophic levels in turn extract stored chemical energy from the herbivores and carnivores they eat. In other words, energy travels upward through the food chain. Any time an organism eats another organism, it is extracting and converting stored chemical energy into a form it can use.

https://sciencing.com/being-vegetarian- ... -3342.html

Is this a non-moral argument?
We should be more like exclusively photosynthetic plants (we won't worry about the fact that industrial agriculture requires fertilizer with animal biomass) to maximize efficiency?

[JohnDonne]

Funny how grass fed beef is always compared to industrial agriculture in terms of impact on critters and the environment, even though the two things aren’t equivalents in scale, it’s like comparing a local organic vegan farm to a factory farm cattle.

It isn't funny.
It is because vegans always bring up the 'good of the environment' using examples of 'organic' veganism without being able to convincingly scale that to the whole human population.

I’m unaware of vegans doing this, but as I said, that’s exactky what grass fed beef proponents do.