Justin Trudeau asks Pope for apology

[BjornP]

It was still the Canadian government that handed over those children, and the CC was doing what everyone else at the time thought of as the normal and acceptable thing to do. And if they want to make it right, they simply need to round up any politicians, social workers, school teachers and priests who worked those schools aimed at destroying native culture back then, and punish them to the satisfaction of the children and parents wronged.

Indeed.

Not even remotely comparable to that and you know it. If you lost your children because you had the wrong culture, if they grow up not being able to even talk to you, relate to your beliefs, traditions, if the State had made them foreigners to you.... you would laugh about that, and liken your experience to that Monty Python skecth, too?

[BjornP]

And Fife: There's quite a bit of difference between modern day blacks whining about wrongs committed to ancestors of theirs two centuries ago versus people who suffered injustices by the state in recent history, where the people who were wronged still live.

If your government took your kids away to protect them from your savage and uncivilized customs, and handed them over to a religious Islamic, Pashtun religious school, you and your kids might - you know - get a little resentful about that down the line. Or at least, one might hope you or they would.

Was that for me?

Yes. That's why it starts with "Fife:" It wasn't, as you may believe, me urging the reader to play the fife before reading on.

It was in reference to your posting of the SP caption. As if your blacks and their stupid claims of victimhood multiple generations after the fact, was comparable to the real claims of victimhood by people who were kidnapped and had their culture destroyed by the state in living memory by still living victims. Or was that not the point of why you showed that caption?

[DBTrek]

Not even remotely comparable to that and you know it. If you lost your children because you had the wrong culture, if they grow up not being able to even talk to you, relate to your beliefs, traditions, if the State had made them foreigners to you.... you would laugh about that, and liken your experience to that Monty Python skecth, too?

History is so mean.
Let's have a good cry over it.

Unless some future political stooge demands an apology from some other guy down the road for our grievances.
In that case let's celebrate.
No wait, I mean let's still cry about it.
Actually, I guess it doesn't really matter either way.
Because what happened still happened and the words of two self-important figureheads doesn't make a whit of difference.

[Fife]

And Fife: There's quite a bit of difference between modern day blacks whining about wrongs committed to ancestors of theirs two centuries ago versus people who suffered injustices by the state in recent history, where the people who were wronged still live.

If your government took your kids away to protect them from your savage and uncivilized customs, and handed them over to a religious Islamic, Pashtun religious school, you and your kids might - you know - get a little resentful about that down the line. Or at least, one might hope you or they would.

Was that for me?

Yes. That's why it starts with "Fife:" It wasn't, as you may believe, me urging the reader to play the fife before reading on.

It was in reference to your posting of the SP caption. As if your blacks and their stupid claims of victimhood multiple generations after the fact, was comparable to the real claims of victimhood by people who were kidnapped and had their culture destroyed by the state in living memory by still living victims. Or was that not the point of why you showed that caption?

I didn't understand the context, now I see what you are driving at. I was making fun of the nonsense that the state would, or could, ever "apologize" for anything. Much less make somebody else "apologize." The state can do the only thing it can do--steal property--and that's about it.

As for reparations of any kind to anybody, it's just more hoohoo out of the state. The same state that caused the injury in the first place.

[DBTrek]

Hey Fife, you know a great way *not* to let your kids be handed "over to a religious Islamic, Pashtun religious school"?
Don't lose any wars to Pashtuns.

That one is a freebie, on me.
Someone should get some use out of this history degree.

[BjornP]

Not even remotely comparable to that and you know it. If you lost your children because you had the wrong culture, if they grow up not being able to even talk to you, relate to your beliefs, traditions, if the State had made them foreigners to you.... you would laugh about that, and liken your experience to that Monty Python skecth, too?

History is so mean.
Let's have a good cry over it.

"History"?

If we were talking about history as in "everyone who lived through it is dead", I'd be inclined to agree with that sentiment. If we're talking 1960's and 70's and we're talking still living victims, though.... your point does not apply, and I don't even believe you really disagree with me on that.

Justice is solely individualistic, not collective. "Native Americans" have no fucking claim to any apology. But the living individuals who happen to be NA's, those children now adult and, if they're still alive, any parents who lost their children.... they absolutely deserve some sort of justice. That ain't just fucking "history". How would you feel is someone murdered your children, murder doesn't gets solved, yet twenty years later new evidence shows up and some asshole comes up to you and says: "Hey, dude... how can you still be upset about the loss of your kids... it's like, HISTORY, man!"? You'd make Monty Python jokes, then?

No? That's what I'm trying to say to you here. Recognize the simple fact that there's a difference between people seeking an apology for something done to other people like you, hundreds of years ago, versus something actually done to you the individual, say twenty or thirty years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_ ... ool_system

Unless some future political stooge demands an apology from some other guy down the road for our grievances.
In that case let's celebrate.
No wait, I mean let's still cry about it.
Actually, I guess it doesn't really matter either way.
Because what happened still happened and the words of two self-important figureheads doesn't make a whit of difference.

Not suggesting we cry about anything, and you know this perfectly well. You were complaining to clubby some time ago about his "stalking" you and strawmanning you in some other debate a few days ago. Follow your own advice.

I don't believe in collective guilt, nor collective victimization. If the Pope wants to apologize, he should direct it not at "Native Americans" in Canada, but to the specific families, mothers and fathers, who had their children taken away. But it would be better if there were still living priests from Canada, who could do that, instead.

Yes, "what happened, happened"... Deep, DB, deep. Again, if the topic was the sort of history where everyone involved is dead... I'd again agree with your sentiment. But since it isn't in this context, I don't.

[DBTrek]

So the Pope should apologize for Canadians sending Native Americans to Catholic run Canadian Schools -Why?

Some of those kids are still alive, in Canada, after the Canadian government sent them to those schools.
So where did the Pope f*ck up?

Because i hear the Prime Minister of Canada throwing a hissy, and I see him pointing fingers.
But I'm not sure what the Pope did.
Did he bite someone?
Did he hypnotize Canada and force them to run their schools a certain way?

C'mon, man. Some of these survivors of "cultural genocide" are still alive.
Tell me what the Pope owes them.
Because clearly the Pope is the leader of Canada.

[DrYouth]

Hey Fife, you know a great way *not* to let your kids be handed "over to a religious Islamic, Pashtun religious school"?
Don't lose any wars to Pashtuns.

That one is a freebie, on me.
Someone should get some use out of this history degree.

They lost the war.
Too bad.
Suck it up bitches.

So that's one way to smooth over historical grievances.

Very Statesmanlike.

[Fife]

Hey Fife, you know a great way *not* to let your kids be handed "over to a religious Islamic, Pashtun religious school"?
Don't lose any wars to Pashtuns.

That one is a freebie, on me.
Someone should get some use out of this history degree.

What war do you have to win to *not* let your kids be *handed over* to *any* school?

:goteam:

[BjornP]

I didn't understand the context, now I see what you are driving at. I was making fun of the nonsense that the state would, or could, ever "apologize" for anything. Much less make somebody else "apologize." The state can do the only thing it can do--steal property--and that's about it.

As for reparations of any kind to anybody, it's just more hoohoo out of the state. The same state that caused the injury in the first place.

Dunno, a president or prime minister apologizing for a current event, or events that happened in recent times, the state could apologize for that. But the problem with the state, or rather decision-making and responsibility in the state, is that the people responsible change over time. That would be my own reason, why I don't put much stock in talk of slavery reperations, either. But yeah, if you believe the State is violence and taxes are little less than theft, then it makes sense to not put stock into any apology by the state.

Hey Fife, you know a great way *not* to let your kids be handed "over to a religious Islamic, Pashtun religious school"?
Don't lose any wars to Pashtuns.

That one is a freebie, on me.
Someone should get some use out of this history degree.

Pretending that systematic cultural destruction is some sort of basic rule or a foregone conclusion of foreign conquest isn't excatly a strong showing of historical knowledge, DB.