The Right and the Left need each other - debate

[Smitty-48]

The Climate Scientists! The ultimate appeal to authority (fallacy), how can you possibly oppose the One World Socialist Revolution?!

It's Science!*

*Classic Marxism actually.

[BjornP]

It seems quite clear that "the" Right referred to in the OP, does not need "the" Left in the OP, or vice versa. Indeed, some of "the" Right's (on this forum's) notion about what "the" Left really is, is about as rational and founded in facts as "the" Left's notions about "the" Right as all being alt-right, "racists deplorables".

Nothing more than fools feeling who "the" Left is and think they know who they are, while they ironically cite clueless people on the progressive left who similarly feel that everyone on "the" Right are nazis, while they ("the" Right) know they're not. Carbon-copies of the SJW's whose line of reasoning, methods and narratives they've started copying: Navel-gazing, echo chamber-loving, safe-space up their own asses-daffodils who whine, moan and label you a bigot the second someone tells them they're wrong. Sad. Very sad.

So no, none of those sorts of Leftists and none of those sorts of Rightists are needed. Not by each other, not by anyone, not as anything but cautionary tales for a society that wants to avoid descending into navel-gazing weakness, total moral relativism, non-stop victim mentality and a society where truth, justice and reason is an exclusive matter of political alignment combined with the ability to raise shit on social media.

[Montegriffo]

Blah, blah, blah......champagne socialist.....blah, blah,blah

[Smitty-48]

Are you calling DrYouth "clueless", Bjorn?

He's constantly prattling on about the "Climate Scientists!" and how the "Cult of the Individual must end!", to "stop the Plague of Addictions!" and "save the Commons from itself!" blah, blah, blah...

...Champers Bolshie if there ever was one; that's not based on "feelz", that's just reading what he says.

I mean, hello, wot? The "Cult!" of the individual? Come again?

Methinks the cultist is rather in fact, none other than; Doctor One World Socialist Kumbaya...

... up there in his Ivory Tower ski resort, hanging out with his "brothers and sisters" of the "working classes". <chortles>

[BjornP]

Are you calling DrYouth "clueless", Bjorn?

He's constantly prattling on about the "Climate Scientists!" and how the "Cult of the Individual must end!", to "stop the Plague of Addictions!" and "save the Commons from itself!" blah, blah, blah...

...Champers Bolshie if there ever was one; that's not based on "feelz", that's just reading what he says.

I mean, hello, wot? The "Cult!" of the individual? Come again?

Methinks the cultist is rather in fact, none other than; Doctor One World Socialist Kumbaya...

... up there in his Ivory Tower ski resort, hanging out with his "brothers and sisters" of the "working classes". <chortles>

I haven't seen DrY spout any of that inane, "Conservatives = Racist Rednecks Who Hate Poor Brown People" that people here have quoted members of the progressive Left for. I haven't read the things you say he's written. I doubt it's nothing more than (ever entertaining) hyperbole on your part. So I'd trust his own rendition of his own beliefs over your rendition, just like I'd prefer your rendition of your own beliefs to someone else's interpretation of yours.

I recognize the Champagne Labour type, but those people aren't "one world socialist kumbaya" by any shot. Social Democrats in nearly all Western countries today are pro-capitalism, pro-national sovereignty, have abandoned internationalism, Marx's notion of "worker alienation", etc. In my country, those that correspond most to US progressives/globalists are what we call the "culture radicals" wing of the Social Liberal Party. They're not Socialist, by any standard. They're exclusively Champers.

I've personally pegged DrY as more of a Social Liberal than a Social Democrat, much less a Socialist, in any event.

[Smitty-48]

Well of course I am aware that Dr. Kneedipper doesn't have the courage of his convictions, that is in fact what differentiates a Champers Bolshie from the real deal, but I do him the honour of not crushing every last ounce of his street cred by calling him a "Liberal", as in Canada, that is a loaded term, he is my homey from the 6ix after all, so I still allow him the refuge of his Rump Party fallacy, as while I am a cruel man, I'm still a homey from the 6ix till I die. <gang sign>

The essence of Cultural Marxism, is essentially alienation from the American Hegenomy, but there's no actual class struggle economic underpinings to it anymore, as we are all well aware. The Cultural Marxists are all bourgeois middle class pampered dillettantes, to be sure.

[BjornP]

Well of course I am aware that Dr. Kneedipper doesn't have the courage of his convictions, that is in fact what differentiates a Champers Bolshie from the real deal, but I do him the honour of not crushing every last ounce of his street cred by calling him a "Liberal", as in Canada, that is a loaded term, he is my homey from the 6ix after all, so I still allow him the refuge of his Rump Party fallacy, as while I am a cruel man, I'm still a homey from the 6ix till I die. <gang sign>

The essence of Cultural Marxism, is essentially alienation from the American Hegenomy, but there's no actual class struggle economic underpinings to it anymore, as we are all well aware. The Cultural Marxists are all bourgeois middle class pampered dillettantes, to be sure.

Ah, right. That old assumption of yours that you're not the "real deal" or have "the courage of your convictions" if you're not either a 0 or a 10 on some Left-Right wing political scale. I prefer to live in the real world, where not only more political philosophies exist than hardcore Marxist and hardcore Conservative, but also where most people really don't give a fuck about mixing political ideas up a little. People are what they are. A Social Democrat isn't a "failed Stalinist", anymore that a Tea Party Republican is a "failed".... I dunno "neo-Confederate rebel" or whatever stereotype fits them best.

[Smitty-48]

Most people being bourgeois at this point, and so not inclined to make any history, as courage of convictions ultimately mandates the resolve to kill and die for ones principles therein, if you find those people so not inclined to be relevant to the arc of history, I can't imagine why, but to each his own I guess.

Borgeois revolution to change the arc of history? No such thing.

Their "real world" only exists in a sheltered bubble behind walls manned by far sterner stuff indeed, without those walls manned, the real world would cook them in a pot and eat them.

Quite frankly, all these wishy washy pissant jib jabbering panty waists ultimately owe their comfortable existence therein to Mr. Teller and his Hydrogen Bomb, without that, we might just have to drive them to the front, kicking and screaming or otherwise.

[DrYouth]

Ah, right. That old assumption of yours that you're not the "real deal" or have "the courage of your convictions" if you're not either a 0 or a 10 on some Left-Right wing political scale. I prefer to live in the real world, where not only more political philosophies exist than hardcore Marxist and hardcore Conservative, but also where most people really don't give a fuck about mixing political ideas up a little. People are what they are. A Social Democrat isn't a "failed Stalinist", anymore that a Tea Party Republican is a "failed".... I dunno "neo-Confederate rebel" or whatever stereotype fits them best.

Thank you Bjorn for injecting some reality into the fantasy apocalyptic dualism of Smittyland...
The real world requires nuance and problem solving rather than this fantasy of Bolshevism vs The Individual Sovereign.
Seriously we need to come out of this Platonic world of Ideals.

So I agree we don't need "those kind" of leftist and rightists...
But we do need political thinkers prepared to adapt to the problems of today and reinvent our institutions.
We need to find ways that the "losers" in our economic downturns can continue to contribute to society rather than ending up in the waste bin where they will only cost society. As our new waves of creative destruction hit with the rapidly escalating pace of technological change we want to make sure we don't dismiss creative ideas out of hand.

So those that identify as left or right in this forum should stick around to fill out the spectrum of critique.
Although I am on the left I look forward to positive solutions that may be proposed by Trump... or any Canadian Trump that may emerge in the north, while combatting any disastrous proposals... And would be prepared for the same from any Bernie Sanders that emerges... while looking with the right amount of skepticism at parties advertising themselves as left or right while really serving corporate interests at the expense of civilians.

[nickle7]

It seems quite clear that "the" Right referred to in the OP, does not need "the" Left in the OP, or vice versa. Indeed, some of "the" Right's (on this forum's) notion about what "the" Left really is, is about as rational and founded in facts as "the" Left's notions about "the" Right as all being alt-right, "racists deplorables".

Nothing more than fools feeling who "the" Left is and think they know who they are, while they ironically cite clueless people on the progressive left who similarly feel that everyone on "the" Right are nazis, while they ("the" Right) know they're not. Carbon-copies of the SJW's whose line of reasoning, methods and narratives they've started copying: Navel-gazing, echo chamber-loving, safe-space up their own asses-daffodils who whine, moan and label you a bigot the second someone tells them they're wrong. Sad. Very sad.

So no, none of those sorts of Leftists and none of those sorts of Rightists are needed. Not by each other, not by anyone, not as anything but cautionary tales for a society that wants to avoid descending into navel-gazing weakness, total moral relativism, non-stop victim mentality and a society where truth, justice and reason is an exclusive matter of political alignment combined with the ability to raise shit on social media.

Amen. Seriously. The polarization is the biggest danger of the current political and social climate. When the pendulum of power balance becomes a wrecking ball, that's a recipe for disaster.