Trump's Economic Plan

[apeman]

You see no downsides, and allege that a meme showing that tariffs will hurt America as "stem[ing] from ideological thinking entirely divorced from reality."

For the record, as IIRC I have not laid this out on this thread, I see pros and cons, with the cons outweighing, but am open to new evidence as it comes, and I do recognize the grave danger posed by our increasingly hollowed-out middle class. If tariffs is the answer to that problem, so be it, but we need to be honest about the costs.

I mean, where will Hash buy his sneakers, if they're not made in China and sold at Walmart?

[Speaker to Animals]

You see no downsides, and allege that a meme showing that tariffs will hurt America as "stem[ing] from ideological thinking entirely divorced from reality."

For the record, as IIRC I have not laid this out on this thread, I see pros and cons, with the cons outweighing, but am open to new evidence as it comes, and I do recognize the grave danger posed by our increasingly hollowed-out middle class. If tariffs is the answer to that problem, so be it, but we need to be honest about the costs.

I mean, where will Hash buy his sneakers, if they're not made in China and sold at Walmart?

I see zero downsides.

Oh.. you mean some people won't make huge amounts of money by destroying the middle class and exploiting the developing world? Funny that the same people who argue against me regarding "wealth inequality" defend exactly what leads to it.

[SuburbanFarmer]

They do in fact levy tariffs against US imports.

That's cool. Again, it wouldn't matter anyway. The only possible consumers of our software and widgets would be their top-tier upper class anyway. Their currency being depressed means that they can't buy shit from us.

We are talking about raw materials and manufactured goods like automobiles here.

You really should avoid the stock market.

:facepalm:

Ok, Macro 101 Guy.

You understand that the Chinese buy our shit in a different currency than what we use to buy from them, right?

If our currency is worth significantly more, then we can buy many, many things from them - and we do.

Since their currency is lower, they cannot buy things from us, but they receive our dollars like gold, and use it to purchase bonds from our government - paying interest.

This is not abstract, and has nothing to do with the stock market. It also has nothing to do with tariffs, despite your fascination with them.

[SuburbanFarmer]

You see no downsides, and allege that a meme showing that tariffs will hurt America as "stem[ing] from ideological thinking entirely divorced from reality."

For the record, as IIRC I have not laid this out on this thread, I see pros and cons, with the cons outweighing, but am open to new evidence as it comes, and I do recognize the grave danger posed by our increasingly hollowed-out middle class. If tariffs is the answer to that problem, so be it, but we need to be honest about the costs.

I mean, where will Hash buy his sneakers, if they're not made in China and sold at Walmart?

I see zero downsides.

Oh.. you mean some people won't make huge amounts of money by destroying the middle class and exploiting the developing world? Funny that the same people who argue against me regarding "wealth inequality" defend exactly what leads to it.

No. If we enact a 20% tariff on X, Y, and Z from China, then our domestic companies will wait approximately .3 seconds before raising their prices on X, Y, and Z by exactly 19%.

That is the effect of tariffs. Trade is stopped, and consumers are gouged, because you're creating an artificial restriction on supply. Nothing more. There is no benefit, other than higher corporate profits on X, Y, and Z, and pissing off China, which does nothing other than make you feel good standing in the soup line.

[apeman]

That is the effect of tariffs. Trade is stopped, and consumers are gouged, because you're creating an artificial restriction on supply. Nothing more. There is no benefit, other than higher corporate profits on X, Y, and Z, and pissing off China, which does nothing other than make you feel good standing in the soup line.

Don't go to the extreme. There are benefits. I just suspect they are minimal compared to the costs.

[SuburbanFarmer]

That is the effect of tariffs. Trade is stopped, and consumers are gouged, because you're creating an artificial restriction on supply. Nothing more. There is no benefit, other than higher corporate profits on X, Y, and Z, and pissing off China, which does nothing other than make you feel good standing in the soup line.

Don't go to the extreme. There are benefits. I just suspect they are minimal compared to the costs.

Well, I mean, there are political benefits to embargoing Cuba and Russia, but not economic ones.

It's great business for smugglers, too.

[Speaker to Animals]

You see no downsides, and allege that a meme showing that tariffs will hurt America as "stem[ing] from ideological thinking entirely divorced from reality."

For the record, as IIRC I have not laid this out on this thread, I see pros and cons, with the cons outweighing, but am open to new evidence as it comes, and I do recognize the grave danger posed by our increasingly hollowed-out middle class. If tariffs is the answer to that problem, so be it, but we need to be honest about the costs.

I mean, where will Hash buy his sneakers, if they're not made in China and sold at Walmart?

I see zero downsides.

Oh.. you mean some people won't make huge amounts of money by destroying the middle class and exploiting the developing world? Funny that the same people who argue against me regarding "wealth inequality" defend exactly what leads to it.

No. If we enact a 20% tariff on X, Y, and Z from China, then our domestic companies will wait approximately .3 seconds before raising their prices on X, Y, and Z by exactly 19%.

That is the effect of tariffs. Trade is stopped, and consumers are gouged, because you're creating an artificial restriction on supply. Nothing more. There is no benefit, other than higher corporate profits on X, Y, and Z, and pissing off China, which does nothing other than make you feel good standing in the soup line.

Depends how you implement the tariffs.

Our nation operated with tariffs for almost 200 years, no problem. China seems to be doing quite well with tariffs.

But more to the point: the way tariffs have been suggested in recent months is a means to stop the practice of offshoring jobs in such a way that American companies decide to produce goods meant for American markets in the developing world and then "import" those goods back into America.

That's not really trade, and it may be that the best way to deal with it is to penalize those companies by placing a tariff on their goods so that it would be cheaper for them to just make American goods in America.

If China wants go invent their own products, build them, and import them here, I don't think I would see the problem with letting them compete. But that's not really what we are talking about here. China doesn't invent shit. These are American companies paying to have wage slaves manufacture shit in China, and then bring that shit back into the US to sell here. They should make their shit here. Sorry. I don't have a problem with penalizing that at all.

If you really want to see the character of these globalists you got into bed with here, then look at how they treat people in the developing world. That's how they would treat you if they could get away it. These people are fucking evil.

[SuburbanFarmer]

I see zero downsides.

Oh.. you mean some people won't make huge amounts of money by destroying the middle class and exploiting the developing world? Funny that the same people who argue against me regarding "wealth inequality" defend exactly what leads to it.

No. If we enact a 20% tariff on X, Y, and Z from China, then our domestic companies will wait approximately .3 seconds before raising their prices on X, Y, and Z by exactly 19%.

That is the effect of tariffs. Trade is stopped, and consumers are gouged, because you're creating an artificial restriction on supply. Nothing more. There is no benefit, other than higher corporate profits on X, Y, and Z, and pissing off China, which does nothing other than make you feel good standing in the soup line.

Depends how you implement the tariffs.

Our nation operated with tariffs for almost 200 years, no problem. China seems to be doing quite well with tariffs.

But more to the point: the way tariffs have been suggested in recent months is a means to stop the practice of offshoring jobs in such a way that American companies decide to produce goods meant for American markets in the developing world and then "import" those goods back into America.

That's not really trade, and it may be that the best way to deal with it is to penalize those companies by placing a tariff on their goods so that it would be cheaper for them to just make American goods in America.

That's cool. Except that you can't target specific companies. They'll just reform and rename.

So, you'll be targeting "all goods coming from China". Which means that you'll have to raise the price/tariff to a point that it's more profitable to pay an American $15/hr to make your plastic shit. That means that you will now pay (just guessing here) around 10-20x as much for plastic shit, once you factor in required benefits and healthcare, and Social Security, etc.

Cool, so now a squirt gun costs about $20, but we pissed off China, and people are working!

Except they're working an entire week to afford some plastic shit. But we're WINNING!!!

[Speaker to Animals]

No. If we enact a 20% tariff on X, Y, and Z from China, then our domestic companies will wait approximately .3 seconds before raising their prices on X, Y, and Z by exactly 19%.

That is the effect of tariffs. Trade is stopped, and consumers are gouged, because you're creating an artificial restriction on supply. Nothing more. There is no benefit, other than higher corporate profits on X, Y, and Z, and pissing off China, which does nothing other than make you feel good standing in the soup line.

Depends how you implement the tariffs.

Our nation operated with tariffs for almost 200 years, no problem. China seems to be doing quite well with tariffs.

But more to the point: the way tariffs have been suggested in recent months is a means to stop the practice of offshoring jobs in such a way that American companies decide to produce goods meant for American markets in the developing world and then "import" those goods back into America.

That's not really trade, and it may be that the best way to deal with it is to penalize those companies by placing a tariff on their goods so that it would be cheaper for them to just make American goods in America.

That's cool. Except that you can't target specific companies. They'll just reform and rename.

So, you'll be targeting "all goods coming from China". Which means that you'll have to raise the price/tariff to a point that it's more profitable to pay an American $15/hr to make your plastic shit. That means that you will now pay (just guessing here) around 10-20x as much for plastic shit, once you factor in required benefits and healthcare, and Social Security, etc.

Cool, so now a squirt gun costs about $20, but we pissed off China, and people are working!

Except they're working an entire week to afford some plastic shit. But we're WINNING!!!

Hell yes you can target anybody you want to target.

You are making a false dichotomy here.

Nor does China invent and produce their own products. If anything, we seem to hold them back with this relationship in that they have no incentive to actually innovate. They have a very high IQ population, not unlike South Korea, and yet unlike South Korea, they don't invent anything on their own.

My contention is that, if they had to exit this offshoring business model, they would be forced to actually compete like South Korea does.

I also forgot to mention before that your assertion that American companies would just raise prices implies such an utter lack of competition that, if true, tariffs would be among the least of your problems.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Depends how you implement the tariffs.

Our nation operated with tariffs for almost 200 years, no problem. China seems to be doing quite well with tariffs.

But more to the point: the way tariffs have been suggested in recent months is a means to stop the practice of offshoring jobs in such a way that American companies decide to produce goods meant for American markets in the developing world and then "import" those goods back into America.

That's not really trade, and it may be that the best way to deal with it is to penalize those companies by placing a tariff on their goods so that it would be cheaper for them to just make American goods in America.

That's cool. Except that you can't target specific companies. They'll just reform and rename.

So, you'll be targeting "all goods coming from China". Which means that you'll have to raise the price/tariff to a point that it's more profitable to pay an American $15/hr to make your plastic shit. That means that you will now pay (just guessing here) around 10-20x as much for plastic shit, once you factor in required benefits and healthcare, and Social Security, etc.

Cool, so now a squirt gun costs about $20, but we pissed off China, and people are working!

Except they're working an entire week to afford some plastic shit. But we're WINNING!!!

Hell yes you can target anybody you want to target.

You are making a false dichotomy here.

Nor does China invent and produce their own products. If anything, we seem to hold them back with this relationship in that they have no incentive to actually innovate. They have a very high IQ population, not unlike South Korea, and yet unlike South Korea, they don't invent anything on their own.

My contention is that, if they had to exit this offshoring business model, they would be forced to actually compete like South Korea does.

I also forgot to mention before that your assertion that American companies would just raise prices implies such an utter lack of competition that, if true, tariffs would be among the least of your problems.

EXACTLY!!!!