Abortion: Liberty First

[C-Mag]

Really Martin............. I'm looking for some knowledge here. If I'm wrong on this cool, I will have learned something

[Martin Hash]

Dude, I'm just a doctor & lawyer, I'm no theologian. I have no idea how many angels dance on the head of a pin but I do know if you try to prevent a woman from having a legal abortion, you're going to jail. They fuck people in the ass in jail so I don't think abortion will be an issue there.

[C-Mag]

The Logic is simple.
If life is present it is murder, homicide, infanticide, whatever.

Now lots of cultures have practiced infanticide. And in some of those cases you find it hard not to blame those cultures. I just think we need to be honest with ourselves. We are a culture that has made voluntary infanticide legal, and pretty much State Sponsored. Let's not doll it up as A Womans Right to Choose. That's Bullshit, call it what it is.

[Martin Hash]

It's obviously subjective or you wouldn't be lamenting the fact that SCOTUS disagrees with your interpretation. I'm not sure how you expect to proceed? Constitutional Convention? I think you'll lose. Revolution? Maybe? Baby-huggers are gun-nuts. So, I guess if you won't agree to go by The Law, guns is the only alternative.

[C-Mag]

It's obviously subjective or you wouldn't be lamenting the fact that SCOTUS disagrees with your interpretation. I'm not sure how you expect to proceed? Constitutional Convention? I think you'll lose. Revolution? Maybe? Baby-huggers are gun-nuts. So, I guess if you won't agree to go by The Law, guns is the only alternative.

I didn't call for it to be changed.

I said we need to define when life exists or does not exist.

[C-Mag]

Roe v. Wade 1973

Opinion of the Court written by Supreme Court Justice Blackmun


"We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer."[p160] . . .

"There has always been strong support for the view that life does not begin until live' birth."[n56] . . .

"Physicians and their scientific colleagues have regarded that event with less interest and have tended to focus either upon conception, upon live birth, or upon the interim point at which the fetus becomes "viable ," that is, potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid.[n59] Viability is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks.[n60] The Aristotelian theory of "mediate animation," that held sway through out the Middle Ages and the Renaissance in Europe, continued to be official Roman Catholic Dogma until the 19th century, despite opposition to this "ensoulment" theory from those in the Church who would recognize the existence of life from [p161] the moment of conception.[n61] The latter is now, of course, the official belief of the Catholic Church. As one brief amicus discloses, this is a view strongly held by many non-Catholics as well, and by many physicians. Substantial problems for precise definition of this view are posed, however, by new embryological data that purport to indicate that conception is a "process" over time rather than an event, and by new medical techniques such as menstrual extraction, the "morning-after" pill implantation of embryos, artificial insemination, and even artificial wombs."[n62] . . .

You see my point.
The Supreme Court said at Live Birth or when viable with aid. So, as science and medicine improves, the definition of when life begins becomes earlier (or later if your medicine sucks).

[Martin Hash]

It's obviously subjective or you wouldn't be lamenting the fact that SCOTUS disagrees with your interpretation. I'm not sure how you expect to proceed? Constitutional Convention? I think you'll lose. Revolution? Maybe? Baby-huggers are gun-nuts. So, I guess if you won't agree to go by The Law, guns is the only alternative.

I didn't call for it to be changed.

I said we need to define when life exists or does not exist.

I don't understand how that would change? R U thinking it will stop abortions? What, NO MORE ABORTIONS because we decided when life starts, like that makes a difference. As per the OP, if you hate abortions so much, force ALL women onto contraception so that can't get pregnant without permission, unless that is, you think it might impact their liberty?

[Martin Hash]

Think of it this way, which is more of an impingement on a woman's liberty?
1) has to get permission to get pregnant
2) has to carry an unwanted child for 9 months

[C-Mag]

Not going to infringe on anyone's Liberty.

My only point is we should be honest and recognize this for what is, Infanticide. We give the mother sole authority on whether legal infanticide is performed, but we also allow the mother the ability to bring charges against others if the unborn is killed outside the clinic. Now, I kind of like when we let the SCOTUS decide things, but that's a hell of a lot of Liberty that only women get.

[Martin Hash]

Nice point.