Most Important Battle for Western Civilization?

[Hwen Hoshino]

This thread reminds me of the book Carnage and Culture by Victor Davis Hanson. It is an extremely biased book, especially towards the end, but it discusses many of the battles we talked about. He thought the battle of Tours (Poiters) was an epic and decisive clash between East and West, but other academics have said that the Ummayad calvary Martel came across were just a grab ass raiding party looking for an easy score. I don't know which version is accurate, but Charles Martel was a pretty bad ass dude, with his "wall of ice."
I'm glad that France is defending his legacy with their immigration policy. Martel would have been overjoyed to see how his descendants solemnly stood up to the invaders, bravely handing out welfare checks and housing subsidies, down to the last man, until the papercuts became too much for even the most resolute Frankish bureaucrat to bear...

He would be to busy complaining about France not being christian enough and the people being soft. Also he probably had no conception of the nation state.

[Ex-California]

So are we talking about the survival of Western Civilization or what led to our current world hegemony?

If its survival I think that Tours has to be it, SSU nailed it there.

If it is what directly led to Western Civilization today I'd say it would be Cortez vs the Aztecs. Without Spain being able to install a solid foothold in the New World the West would have never been able to conquer a whole new set of continents that directly led to the richness and the power of the West in the last 500 years. Now, in reality it is the 100s of years of fighting and biological warfare of the Europeans vs the Americans but Cortez and his Indian allies took out the strongest empire the New World had seen up to that time, and by the time that was over the die was truly cast.

(I'm really looking forward to the next History of Fire series btw)

[C-Mag]

What are some of the most important battles for Western Civilization? If not the most important one?

Salamis
Thermopylae
Battle of Tours
Battle of Lepanto
Siege of Vienna
Battle of Vienna

I would say the battle of Tours. (Or the battle of Poitiers, as it sometimes is called)



The reason is that during the time of the Greeks Western Civilization was at it's infancy, hence if the annoying Greeks would have been annihilated By the Persians, nobody would give a fuck about those little city states. Because then the landmass of Western Europe wasn't exactly the cradle of Western Civilization. If Greeks would be part of Persia, then we could all speak about our Persian heritage.

At Lepanto and the two times at the Vienna, the West was powerful enough that simply the Ottomans couldn't have conquered everything until the North Sea. An Ottoman win in these battles wouldn't have meant the end of Western Europe.

It is Tours. Even if it wasn't such a big event, even if we hardly know anything about it and basically as a pure battle it's not so huge. Yet during that time Western Europe was extremely fragile and could have easily fallen. And hence it was sheer luck that the Mongols did only do a "recon" attack into Europe.

It actually could be the battle of Nineveh in 627 AD.

This because the Roman-Sassanid war fought by Heraclius weakened both great Empires so much that some annoying zealot bedouins from the middle of nowhere could disrupt everything. If that wouldn't have happened, I guess that people here would be writing about the nasty fire worshippers in the way as they do about Muslims now. Yep, for some reason, the nice people from Iran seem to be our "enemy" at all times.

Christianity and East Rome wins Persia (then the Sassanid Empire), yet loses in the long run... with fateful consequences for the Roman Empire.

+1

You make an excellent argument.

[C-Mag]

This thread reminds me of the book Carnage and Culture by Victor Davis Hanson. It is an extremely biased book, especially towards the end, but it discusses many of the battles we talked about. He thought the battle of Tours (Poiters) was an epic and decisive clash between East and West, but other academics have said that the Ummayad calvary Martel came across were just a grab ass raiding party looking for an easy score. I don't know which version is accurate, but Charles Martel was a pretty bad ass dude, with his "wall of ice."
I'm glad that France is defending his legacy with their immigration policy. Martel would have been overjoyed to see how his descendants solemnly stood up to the invaders, bravely handing out welfare checks and housing subsidies, down to the last man, until the papercuts became too much for even the most resolute Frankish bureaucrat to bear...

He would be to busy complaining about France not being christian enough and the people being soft. Also he probably had no conception of the nation state.

Dan takes view of Muslim conquests as well, seeing a series of battles merely as disparate raids. I think it's a foolish notion.

[Speaker to Animals]

This thread reminds me of the book Carnage and Culture by Victor Davis Hanson. It is an extremely biased book, especially towards the end, but it discusses many of the battles we talked about. He thought the battle of Tours (Poiters) was an epic and decisive clash between East and West, but other academics have said that the Ummayad calvary Martel came across were just a grab ass raiding party looking for an easy score. I don't know which version is accurate, but Charles Martel was a pretty bad ass dude, with his "wall of ice."
I'm glad that France is defending his legacy with their immigration policy. Martel would have been overjoyed to see how his descendants solemnly stood up to the invaders, bravely handing out welfare checks and housing subsidies, down to the last man, until the papercuts became too much for even the most resolute Frankish bureaucrat to bear...

He would be to busy complaining about France not being christian enough and the people being soft. Also he probably had no conception of the nation state.

Dan takes view of Muslim conquests as well, seeing a series of battles merely as disparate raids. I think it's a foolish notion.

"Reconnaissance in force"

[heydaralon]

This thread reminds me of the book Carnage and Culture by Victor Davis Hanson. It is an extremely biased book, especially towards the end, but it discusses many of the battles we talked about. He thought the battle of Tours (Poiters) was an epic and decisive clash between East and West, but other academics have said that the Ummayad calvary Martel came across were just a grab ass raiding party looking for an easy score. I don't know which version is accurate, but Charles Martel was a pretty bad ass dude, with his "wall of ice."
I'm glad that France is defending his legacy with their immigration policy. Martel would have been overjoyed to see how his descendants solemnly stood up to the invaders, bravely handing out welfare checks and housing subsidies, down to the last man, until the papercuts became too much for even the most resolute Frankish bureaucrat to bear...

He would be to busy complaining about France not being christian enough and the people being soft. Also he probably had no conception of the nation state.

You realize that a good deal of my comments are made in jest right? Thats like saying, "If Thomas Jefferson was here today, he'd be amazed by a lightswitch, and be condemned by MSNBC for his slave ownership." Well, no kidding.

[Hwen Hoshino]

This thread reminds me of the book Carnage and Culture by Victor Davis Hanson. It is an extremely biased book, especially towards the end, but it discusses many of the battles we talked about. He thought the battle of Tours (Poiters) was an epic and decisive clash between East and West, but other academics have said that the Ummayad calvary Martel came across were just a grab ass raiding party looking for an easy score. I don't know which version is accurate, but Charles Martel was a pretty bad ass dude, with his "wall of ice."
I'm glad that France is defending his legacy with their immigration policy. Martel would have been overjoyed to see how his descendants solemnly stood up to the invaders, bravely handing out welfare checks and housing subsidies, down to the last man, until the papercuts became too much for even the most resolute Frankish bureaucrat to bear...

He would be to busy complaining about France not being christian enough and the people being soft. Also he probably had no conception of the nation state.

You realize that a good deal of my comments are made in jest right? Thats like saying, "If Thomas Jefferson was here today, he'd be amazed by a lightswitch, and be condemned by MSNBC for his slave ownership." Well, no kidding.

I am not the one saying Martel has relevance for today.

So are we talking about the survival of Western Civilization or what led to our current world hegemony?

If its survival I think that Tours has to be it, SSU nailed it there.

Empires overextend quickly retreat all the the time. Rome conquered Parthia and got the fuck back etc..

This thread reminds me of the book Carnage and Culture by Victor Davis Hanson. It is an extremely biased book, especially towards the end, but it discusses many of the battles we talked about. He thought the battle of Tours (Poiters) was an epic and decisive clash between East and West, but other academics have said that the Ummayad calvary Martel came across were just a grab ass raiding party looking for an easy score. I don't know which version is accurate, but Charles Martel was a pretty bad ass dude, with his "wall of ice."
I'm glad that France is defending his legacy with their immigration policy. Martel would have been overjoyed to see how his descendants solemnly stood up to the invaders, bravely handing out welfare checks and housing subsidies, down to the last man, until the papercuts became too much for even the most resolute Frankish bureaucrat to bear...

He would be to busy complaining about France not being christian enough and the people being soft. Also he probably had no conception of the nation state.

Dan takes view of Muslim conquests as well, seeing a series of battles merely as disparate raids. I think it's a foolish notion.

I never claimed what Dan claimed.

[heydaralon]

What are some of the most important battles for Western Civilization? If not the most important one?

Salamis
Thermopylae
Battle of Tours
Battle of Lepanto
Siege of Vienna
Battle of Vienna

I would say the battle of Tours. (Or the battle of Poitiers, as it sometimes is called)



The reason is that during the time of the Greeks Western Civilization was at it's infancy, hence if the annoying Greeks would have been annihilated By the Persians, nobody would give a fuck about those little city states. Because then the landmass of Western Europe wasn't exactly the cradle of Western Civilization. If Greeks would be part of Persia, then we could all speak about our Persian heritage.

At Lepanto and the two times at the Vienna, the West was powerful enough that simply the Ottomans couldn't have conquered everything until the North Sea. An Ottoman win in these battles wouldn't have meant the end of Western Europe.

It is Tours. Even if it wasn't such a big event, even if we hardly know anything about it and basically as a pure battle it's not so huge. Yet during that time Western Europe was extremely fragile and could have easily fallen. And hence it was sheer luck that the Mongols did only do a "recon" attack into Europe.

It actually could be the battle of Nineveh in 627 AD.

This because the Roman-Sassanid war fought by Heraclius weakened both great Empires so much that some annoying zealot bedouins from the middle of nowhere could disrupt everything. If that wouldn't have happened, I guess that people here would be writing about the nasty fire worshippers in the way as they do about Muslims now. Yep, for some reason, the nice people from Iran seem to be our "enemy" at all times.

Christianity and East Rome wins Persia (then the Sassanid Empire), yet loses in the long run... with fateful consequences for the Roman Empire.

That picture is badass. When I get more money, I would love to frame some pictures of famous battles. I really love battle art. One of my favorites is a scene where Mehmet II rides into Constantinople right after the city is breached. There is another really cool painting of the Siege of Constantinople showing the Turkish soldiers attempting to breach the walls that is also beautiful. I don't know who painted them, but a lot of American Civil War art is quite moving. There is a picture of the Battle of Shiloh on the cover of Hanson's Ripples of Battle that I really like.

[Okeefenokee]

[Speaker to Animals]

\
Battle of Vienna




Battle of Tours "Stop! It's hammer time"