Social Justice Warriors Thread

[K@th]

Christmas trees are Pagan....we're debating this? (seriously)

Just because they did it first, doesn't mean they did it first. This is easy.

[DBTrek]

Old testament also says you have to sit in a river buck naked for seven days if you fuck your wife on her period....what about it?

Gee ... why would I possibly cite that verse in an ongoing discussion over whether Christmas Trees have pagan origins or not.
It’s a a real fucking mystery, eh?

[Zlaxer]

Old testament also says you have to sit in a river buck naked for seven days if you fuck your wife on her period....what about it?

Gee ... why would I possibly cite that verse in an ongoing discussion over whether Christmas Trees have pagan origins or not.
It’s a a real fucking mystery, eh?

Isn't the better question, "why wouldn't you cite such a verse?"

[BjornP]

The Christmas tree is actually pretty Christian. It goes back to the Thunderoak story about St. Boniface.

St. Boniface had traveled through Germany to convert pagans. He had converted a group of people in the past, but after returning to their village, he found they many had reverted to paganism. They were about to sacrifice a young boy by an oak tree that the people associated with Thor. St. Boniface, in a demonstration of God's power, struck Thor's Thunderoak down with his bishop's staff. The people reconciled with God, and he ordered them to love their boy, decorate an evergreen tree in commemoration (since the evergreen is symbolic of Christ's everlasting life), and worship God instead of demons.

Like a lot of this stuff I see from atheists on this forum, what you think you know about the history of Christianity (and your own history for that matter) is pretty damned wrong. From the Enlightenment myths about the crusade and inquisitions to the origin of the Christmas tree.. it doesn't help you make valuable judgments. Most of this stuff you guys say is "George Washington never told a lie" level myth.

The vitae on him, does not mention him starting a tradition of a "christmas tree", and there is no record of it in Germany until the 15th century. The first Christmas trees in Germany did not show up until mid- 15th century. And the account of Boniface's life says he cut the tree down, not that he wacked it down with his bishop's staff. Nor is there mention of him saving a boy from being sacrificed:

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/w ... niface.asp

You could argue that it took 700 years for Boniface's destruction of the oak, to the event giving birth to a tradition of using trees as Christmas decorations, but it's clear the tradition doesn't represent a continuity between the destruction of the Donnar oak in the 8th cent. to the 15th century Germany.

[BjornP]

LOL

Grasping.

The history of decorating evergreens on Christmas eve literally originates from the legend of St. Boniface and the Thunderoak:

“This little tree, a young child of the forest, shall be your holy tree tonight. It is the wood of peace… It is the sign of an endless life, for its leaves are ever green. See how it points upward to heaven. Let this be called the tree of the Christ-child; gather about it, not in the wild wood, but in your own homes; there it will shelter no deeds of blood, but loving gifts and rites of kindness.”

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/onlin ... stmas-tree

I'll raise you with an entry from the New Advent site:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

Greenery
Gervase of Tilbury (thirteen century) says that in England grain is exposed on Christmas night to gain fertility from the dew which falls in response to "Rorate Cæli"; the tradition that trees and flowers blossomed on this night is first quoted from an Arab geographer of the tenth century, and extended to England. In a thirteenth-century French epic, candles are seen on the flowering tree. In England it was Joseph of Arimathea's rod which flowered at Glastonbury and elsewhere; when 3 September became 14 September, in 1752, 2000 people watched to see if the Quainton thorn (cratagus præcox) would blow on Christmas New Style; and as it did not, they refused to keep the New Style festival. From this belief of the calends practice of greenery decorations (forbidden by Archbishop Martin of Braga, c. 575, P.L., LXXIII — mistletoe was bequeathed by the Druids) developed the Christmas tree, first definitely mentioned in 1605 at Strasburg, and introduced into France and England in 1840 only, by Princess Helena of Mecklenburg and the Prince Consort respectively.

[Speaker to Animals]

LOL

Grasping.

The history of decorating evergreens on Christmas eve literally originates from the legend of St. Boniface and the Thunderoak:

“This little tree, a young child of the forest, shall be your holy tree tonight. It is the wood of peace… It is the sign of an endless life, for its leaves are ever green. See how it points upward to heaven. Let this be called the tree of the Christ-child; gather about it, not in the wild wood, but in your own homes; there it will shelter no deeds of blood, but loving gifts and rites of kindness.”

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/onlin ... stmas-tree

I'll raise you with an entry from the New Advent site:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

Greenery
Gervase of Tilbury (thirteen century) says that in England grain is exposed on Christmas night to gain fertility from the dew which falls in response to "Rorate Cæli"; the tradition that trees and flowers blossomed on this night is first quoted from an Arab geographer of the tenth century, and extended to England. In a thirteenth-century French epic, candles are seen on the flowering tree. In England it was Joseph of Arimathea's rod which flowered at Glastonbury and elsewhere; when 3 September became 14 September, in 1752, 2000 people watched to see if the Quainton thorn (cratagus præcox) would blow on Christmas New Style; and as it did not, they refused to keep the New Style festival. From this belief of the calends practice of greenery decorations (forbidden by Archbishop Martin of Braga, c. 575, P.L., LXXIII — mistletoe was bequeathed by the Druids) developed the Christmas tree, first definitely mentioned in 1605 at Strasburg, and introduced into France and England in 1840 only, by Princess Helena of Mecklenburg and the Prince Consort respectively.

LOL

Straw man. Mistletoe is pagan. Attacking that does not address the historical fact that the origin of the Christmas tree is in St. Boniface.

[BjornP]

LOL

Grasping.

The history of decorating evergreens on Christmas eve literally originates from the legend of St. Boniface and the Thunderoak:



https://www.catholic.com/magazine/onlin ... stmas-tree

I'll raise you with an entry from the New Advent site:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

Greenery
Gervase of Tilbury (thirteen century) says that in England grain is exposed on Christmas night to gain fertility from the dew which falls in response to "Rorate Cæli"; the tradition that trees and flowers blossomed on this night is first quoted from an Arab geographer of the tenth century, and extended to England. In a thirteenth-century French epic, candles are seen on the flowering tree. In England it was Joseph of Arimathea's rod which flowered at Glastonbury and elsewhere; when 3 September became 14 September, in 1752, 2000 people watched to see if the Quainton thorn (cratagus præcox) would blow on Christmas New Style; and as it did not, they refused to keep the New Style festival. From this belief of the calends practice of greenery decorations (forbidden by Archbishop Martin of Braga, c. 575, P.L., LXXIII — mistletoe was bequeathed by the Druids) developed the Christmas tree, first definitely mentioned in 1605 at Strasburg, and introduced into France and England in 1840 only, by Princess Helena of Mecklenburg and the Prince Consort respectively.

LOL

Straw man. Mistletoe is pagan. Attacking that does not address the historical fact that the origin of the Christmas tree is in St. Boniface.

Your idea of "historical fact" and what historians would call historical fact is clearly at odds, then. The historical source material puts Christmas trees several centuries after Boniface. Do find me either a historian or at the very least some historical sources to back up claims that claim Christmas trees originated, as you claim, with Boniface. I've provided Boniface's vitae already. Do feel free to sift through St. Boniface's own letters to find some arguments to defend your case. There was a reference to them on the same page as the vitae of Boniface.

[Zlaxer]

LOL

Grasping.

The history of decorating evergreens on Christmas eve literally originates from the legend of St. Boniface and the Thunderoak:



https://www.catholic.com/magazine/onlin ... stmas-tree

I'll raise you with an entry from the New Advent site:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

Greenery
Gervase of Tilbury (thirteen century) says that in England grain is exposed on Christmas night to gain fertility from the dew which falls in response to "Rorate Cæli"; the tradition that trees and flowers blossomed on this night is first quoted from an Arab geographer of the tenth century, and extended to England. In a thirteenth-century French epic, candles are seen on the flowering tree. In England it was Joseph of Arimathea's rod which flowered at Glastonbury and elsewhere; when 3 September became 14 September, in 1752, 2000 people watched to see if the Quainton thorn (cratagus præcox) would blow on Christmas New Style; and as it did not, they refused to keep the New Style festival. From this belief of the calends practice of greenery decorations (forbidden by Archbishop Martin of Braga, c. 575, P.L., LXXIII — mistletoe was bequeathed by the Druids) developed the Christmas tree, first definitely mentioned in 1605 at Strasburg, and introduced into France and England in 1840 only, by Princess Helena of Mecklenburg and the Prince Consort respectively.

LOL

Straw man. Mistletoe is pagan. Attacking that does not address the historical fact that the origin of the Christmas tree is in St. Boniface.

Druids....Trees....

[C-Mag]

You are all wrong.

The Christmas tree is a Christian representation of the Menorah.

[Speaker to Animals]

I'll raise you with an entry from the New Advent site:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

LOL

Straw man. Mistletoe is pagan. Attacking that does not address the historical fact that the origin of the Christmas tree is in St. Boniface.

Your idea of "historical fact" and what historians would call historical fact is clearly at odds, then. The historical source material puts Christmas trees several centuries after Boniface. Do find me either a historian or at the very least some historical sources to back up claims that claim Christmas trees originated, as you claim, with Boniface. I've provided Boniface's vitae already. Do feel free to sift through St. Boniface's own letters to find some arguments to defend your case. There was a reference to them on the same page as the vitae of Boniface.

Look at yourself!

I just gave you the historical text that describes, at least from the perspective of a cultural narrative, how the Christmas tree began, and your response is to stick to your guns and say, "well, my source said it happened several centuries after that so that can't be real history!"

Are you disputing the age of the text I quoted??

These accounts came from St. Boniface himself in letters. Whether or not you choose to believe his account is of no import. The German people themselves saw this as the origin of the Christmas tree in the ancient world.