Europe, the not boring thread

[Xenophon]

Cry me a river, Poland. They formally agreed to take those refugees on. They "forced" themselves, iow. A little late to whine about regretting that. And that kid in the video... dear god, she's speaking in fluent hysterical drama queenish. It's goddamn embarrasing for a country that beat one of the greatest Islamic threats in history to treat some refugees as equal to the old Ottoman threat. You don't become a caliphate or a haven for sharia law by agreeing to take on a handful of Muslim refugees. A country with no Muslims, worrying that agreeing to take on a handful of refugees - refugees NOT accept them as citizens or permanent residents in any way - will magically turn Poland into a sharia state. In case none of you understand this yet: Refugees are not immigrants. A refugee or asylum seeker does not get the right to settle down in the country they're seeking asylum in. Once fighting in their homelands are over, send them and their children back home. Like the rest of Europe has always done.

Oh, and if you don't intend to honor agreements you sign... don't sign them in the first place. Generally a good idea in international relations.

At what point have they not been murdering each other in the Middle East or Africa?

At what point have they not been murdering each other in Europe, the Americas or Asia? Sure, Canada is safe, but Mexico is a violence-ridden third world country. Ukraine is embroiled in a civil war, Armenia the same, and the ex-Yugoslav wars were fairly recent as well. And Asia... well, you already mentioned the ME, but the Phillipines, the Koreas, the fight over Kashmir....
Some ongoing conflicts for you, Bjorn. The bright red color means the country highlighted has 1,000–9,999 deaths in current or past calendar year. The dark red color indicates 10,000+ deaths in current or past calendar year.


And you do realize that Africa is an entire continent, right? There are plenty of African countries that haven't been to war for as long a time as European countries, and there are African countries who are not mired in tribal warfare as well. Amazing, I know... but true. Yes,
I'm aware Africa is a continent filled with different countries, who all tend to take up arms at the drop of a hat and burn each others villages down.

It's almost as if pointing to huge geographical regions that emcompasses thousands of completely different cultural groups, or in Africa's case a huge continent, isn't an intelligent way to determine...anything. The differences in the African tribes are inconsequential when you see their shared tendency to partake in shared behavior.

You are from the Americas. Yet, your culture is not Mexican. Judging you as if you were, because you are also from the Americas... you do understand why that's retarded, right?

Not that that has any bearing on admitting refugees, at all, though. I'd be willing to accept a couple of Americans into my country if you descended into civil war. Maybe let you stay for a full ten years, even. But when that civil war ended, you and your children would be going back. That's what refugees mean. I don't want American culture here, but I also won't be getting American culture here by agreeing to take on American refugees to my country. We didn't become Albanian by letting in Albanian refugees, we didn't become Palestinians, by letting in Palestinian refugees and we didn't become Somalis, by admitting Somali refugees. Anyone who thinks that their society is that weak, is a weakling vomit drinker projecting their own weaknesses unto the culture they're - a lesser- part of. Though I'd be embarassed to be Polish and consider admitting a couple thousand refugees into my country as equal to doomsday nightmares of my society having become a sharia law state.

The issue is that most of them aren't refugees. They're economic migrants who come for the gibs and stay for the women. These are mostly men over the age of majority. Not the huddled masses of poor, innocent, scarf-wearing Eastern Europeans of yesteryear.

[BjornP]

The issue is that most of them aren't refugees. They're economic migrants who come for the gibs and stay for the women. These are mostly men over the age of majority. Not the huddled masses of poor, innocent, scarf-wearing Eastern Europeans of yesteryear.

[/quote]

You apparantly don't know what a refugee is, then. Neither legally speaking or linguistically so. Do refugees rather want to come to Sweden than Hungary? Yup. Is that wrong? Yup. Hence why countries shouldn't get to sign agreements and renege on them later on. But that refugees try to go to where the benefits are greatest, doesn't make them any less refugees. They're refugees no matter which country they come to. Doesn't mean you have to take them all in, or that Europe has to pretend to be America, but it doesn't change the fact that a refugee is not an economic migrant like some American settling in an EU country to work is.

[Speaker to Animals]

Most of them are not refugees by any rational definition of that word.

[C-Mag]

Cry me a river, Poland. They formally agreed to take those refugees on. They "forced" themselves, iow. A little late to whine about regretting that. And that kid in the video... dear god

I told you guys, divisions in the EU. To Poland and Hungary this is a sovereignty issue.

[SuburbanFarmer]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-2 ... ions-mount

Efforts by Madrid to stop a Catalonia independence vote, currently slated for October 1st, seem to be growing more hostile by the day. Earlier this week Spanish police seized control of Catalonia’s finances, seeking to ensure that separatist politicians could not spend further public funds on the referendum, and conducted raids across Catalonia to confiscate ballots and campaign materials from printing shops and delivery companies.

Now, as the New York Times notes this morning, Spanish police have detained 14 people during operations conducted yesterday which included the secretary general of economic affairs, Josep Maria Jové.

The Spanish police detained more than a dozen people in the region of Catalonia on Wednesday, drastically escalating tensions between the national government and Catalan separatists. The episode occurred less than two weeks before a highly contentious referendum on independence that the government in Madrid has vowed to block.



The police raided the offices of the Catalan regional government early Wednesday and arrested at least 14 people, including Josep Maria Jové, secretary general of economic affairs. The arrests were not expected, but hundreds of mayors and other officials in Catalonia had been warned that they would be indicted if they helped organize a referendum in violation of Spanish law.

[BjornP]

Most of them are not refugees by any rational definition of that word.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/refugee

Definition of refugee

: one that flees; especially :a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution

If you want to use some hyper-emotionalized and entirely personal, new definition of the word "refugee", you're free to do so, though.

I told you guys, divisions in the EU. To Poland and Hungary this is a sovereignty issue.

You do realize that Hungarians LOVE the EU, right? And Poland is even more pro-EU than Germany.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/06/15/pos ... toward-eu/

They agreed to the deal, so there in this case, there's no sovereignty issue. I've always pointed out there are people within the EU, not countries, not even left-wing or right-wing, who are pushing for more and more centralization of decision-making to be handed over to the Commission (the federalists). But you know who is on the Commision, too? Poland and Hungary:

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commiss ... nkowska_en

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commiss ... racsics_en

And who is the current President of the EU Council? That would be Donald Tusk, former PM of Poland.

So when it comes to divisions... I would love for a fundamental reform of the EU into less of a union, less of a pathetic restoration of the empire of Charlemagne and into more of a pragmatic re-imaging of the Hanseatic League, a confederacy. But no matter the shape of the future, mid-to-long term agreements we make with each other have to be able to survive more than our respective election seasons. If Denmark signs a trade deal with Poland in 2018, but Poland has an election in 2019 and the new government says "NO! We won't honor the agreement we signed last year now", then there is no point to making any deals with them in the future.

Now imagine a deal made between more than two partners, and that's a lot of agreements that get to be shredded into a billion pieces each year, if people just get to ignore the agreements they sign. Add to that that many countries, if not all, in the EU don't have fixed election dates. Honoring agreements made by a previous administration/government, is not a violation of anyone's sovereignty.. it's an honoring of an agreement.

[Speaker to Animals]

Most of them are not escaping a war or persecution. They flooded Europe from places that are not at war and most of them are the very people doing the persecuting rather than victims of persecution.

[C-Mag]

So when it comes to divisions... I would love for a fundamental reform of the EU into less of a union, less of a pathetic restoration of the empire of Charlemagne and into more of a pragmatic re-imaging of the Hanseatic League, a confederacy.

YES, bring back the HANSA !


I've made a prediction that eventually the Eastern nations will splinter with the EU. I see thousands marching in Poland, I see a strong stand by Hungary, and I see the passion you have on these countries not living up to the deal. I'm still confident.

Now let's get that Hanseatic League going.

[Xenophon]

The issue is that most of them aren't refugees. They're economic migrants who come for the gibs and stay for the women. These are mostly men over the age of majority. Not the huddled masses of poor, innocent, scarf-wearing Eastern Europeans of yesteryear.

You apparantly don't know what a refugee is, then. Neither legally speaking or linguistically so. Do refugees rather want to come to Sweden than Hungary? Yup. Is that wrong? Yup. Hence why countries shouldn't get to sign agreements and renege on them later on. But that refugees try to go to where the benefits are greatest, doesn't make them any less refugees. They're refugees no matter which country they come to. Doesn't mean you have to take them all in, or that Europe has to pretend to be America, but it doesn't change the fact that a refugee is not an economic migrant like some American settling in an EU country to work is.

refugee: one that flees; especially :a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 36306.html

Dutch politician Frans Timmermans said the majority of migrants to Europe are from North African countries such as Morocco or Tunisia, where there is no conflict.

“More than half of the people now coming to Europe come from countries where you can assume they have no reason whatsoever to ask for refugee status... more than half, 60 per cent,” he told Dutch broadcaster NOS.

[BjornP]

The issue is that most of them aren't refugees. They're economic migrants who come for the gibs and stay for the women. These are mostly men over the age of majority. Not the huddled masses of poor, innocent, scarf-wearing Eastern Europeans of yesteryear.

You apparantly don't know what a refugee is, then. Neither legally speaking or linguistically so. Do refugees rather want to come to Sweden than Hungary? Yup. Is that wrong? Yup. Hence why countries shouldn't get to sign agreements and renege on them later on. But that refugees try to go to where the benefits are greatest, doesn't make them any less refugees. They're refugees no matter which country they come to. Doesn't mean you have to take them all in, or that Europe has to pretend to be America, but it doesn't change the fact that a refugee is not an economic migrant like some American settling in an EU country to work is.

refugee: one that flees; especially :a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 36306.html

Dutch politician Frans Timmermans said the majority of migrants to Europe are from North African countries such as Morocco or Tunisia, where there is no conflict.

“More than half of the people now coming to Europe come from countries where you can assume they have no reason whatsoever to ask for refugee status... more than half, 60 per cent,” he told Dutch broadcaster NOS.

And? You're again conflating immigrant with refugee, and the article even makes the distinction abundantly clear. No EU countries are legally obligated to take on non-EU migrants who aren't refugees and the EU doesn't force any of those on anyone. Anyone can turn back someone like those who simply sneak into a country for illegal work and you're obviously not getting "gibs" if you're not here legally. Meaning either you're a refugee, or you're a legal economic migrant. Otherwise, any country in the EU will kick you out without any outside repurcussions.

Or, to keep quoting from your article:

Mr Timmermans also said that to ensure the support for genuine asylum seekers and refugees was available, economic migrants should be “returned as quickly as possible,” according to DutchNews.nl.

If the economic migrants were sent back, Mr Timmermans said, it would make a big difference to the care given to refugees fleeing conflict in countries such as Iraq and Syria.

He's absolutely right about that:

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics ... statistics

(fixed link)