Tax Plan For Aristocracy

[K@th]

, I will start changing their screen names to "Fuck You 1," "Fuck You 2," etc. because I'm special, and I deserve to be able to do that.

Since you refuse to fire me, let me change one. I'll consider it a Bennie

[jediuser598]

I would advise that you filter your moral and ideological considerations through practicality. Wanting to live in a utopia, doesn't mean you get to live in one, human nature often gets in the way, so plan accordingly.

We're not talking about me personally.

We're just talking about the definition of Real Politik. Real Politik is acting, and not being restrained by moral or ideological considerations. Real Politik is often at odds with moral and ideological considerations. They're often mutually exclusive. "Hey we shouldn't do this, that is highly likely to produce this beneficial result for me or mine, because it's not a moral thing to do." The Real Politik doesn't accept that argument.

The idea is to actually minimize suffering by not following policies that, while superficially seem morally appropriate, often lead to worse outcomes than had you taken the immoral but effective action. I think a political philosopher defending it might actually point out all the instances that following the moral but less effective strategy leads to a worse outcome (more evil) than the immoral strategy.

For instance, the ruler over some little Principate might choose to extend civil liberties to seditious political enemies out of principle only to face a bloody civil war later on; whereas he could also have rounded up the known conspirators, tortured them for more names, and eventually uproot the entire cabal.

I am not sure how that sort of thing plays out in a modern democracy. It always seemed a bit contrived to me.

"That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer, is a Maxim that has been long and generally approved."

Real Politik can't see the future. Sure it can make guesses at it, maybe even educated guesses, but in the end that's all they are. Holding to principles is better. It's providing an example so that people in general, can act better.

Ok, how about this, what's the Real Politik of holding to principles? If you hold to the above quote? Would a country burn to the ground if we held to the above quote?

And second, lot's of people who say they're Real Politik'ing aren't, they're just being amoral evil people. It's often only in hindsight that we can see the path of Real Politik.

[Speaker to Animals]

We're not talking about me personally.

We're just talking about the definition of Real Politik. Real Politik is acting, and not being restrained by moral or ideological considerations. Real Politik is often at odds with moral and ideological considerations. They're often mutually exclusive. "Hey we shouldn't do this, that is highly likely to produce this beneficial result for me or mine, because it's not a moral thing to do." The Real Politik doesn't accept that argument.

The idea is to actually minimize suffering by not following policies that, while superficially seem morally appropriate, often lead to worse outcomes than had you taken the immoral but effective action. I think a political philosopher defending it might actually point out all the instances that following the moral but less effective strategy leads to a worse outcome (more evil) than the immoral strategy.

For instance, the ruler over some little Principate might choose to extend civil liberties to seditious political enemies out of principle only to face a bloody civil war later on; whereas he could also have rounded up the known conspirators, tortured them for more names, and eventually uproot the entire cabal.

I am not sure how that sort of thing plays out in a modern democracy. It always seemed a bit contrived to me.

"That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer, is a Maxim that has been long and generally approved."

Real Politik can't see the future. Sure it can make guesses at it, maybe even educated guesses, but in the end that's all they are. Holding to principles is better. It's providing an example so that people in general, can act better.

Ok, how about this, what's the Real Politik of holding to principles? If you hold to the above quote? Would a country burn to the ground if we held to the above quote?

I am not a good choice of person to ask to defend it. I am just trying to explain what it is. I still oppose it. But to oppose it you have to actually oppose the real thing as its proponents believe it.

[jediuser598]

I would contend there's a difference between what it really is, and what its proponents say it is.

I can put it simply, it's results oriented. That's Real Politik.

[Speaker to Animals]

I would contend there's a difference between what it really is, and what its proponents say it is.

I can put it simply, it's results oriented. That's Real Politik.

It's also looking at things are they really are instead of how they ought to be. Real politik removes oughts and naughts from the equation and replaces them with wants and necessities. Other people are merely mechanisms to be manipulated to get what you want or need. Nothing more.

[jediuser598]

I would contend there's a difference between what it really is, and what its proponents say it is.

I can put it simply, it's results oriented. That's Real Politik.

It's also looking at things are they really are instead of how they ought to be. Real politik removes oughts and naughts from the equation and replaces them with wants and necessities. Other people are merely mechanisms to be manipulated to get what you want or need. Nothing more.

Wants and necessities not being morality and/or virtue.

[Speaker to Animals]

I would contend there's a difference between what it really is, and what its proponents say it is.

I can put it simply, it's results oriented. That's Real Politik.

It's also looking at things are they really are instead of how they ought to be. Real politik removes oughts and naughts from the equation and replaces them with wants and necessities. Other people are merely mechanisms to be manipulated to get what you want or need. Nothing more.

Wants and necessities not being morality and/or virtue.

It doesn't matter why you think you want or need something. This way of seeing things just takes that for granted and looks at it as nothing more than your perceived wants and needs, and looks at how people actually think and behave in order to manipulate them to achieve your perceived wants and desires.

That's really all it is. People who adhere to it are realists in every sense. Most of them reject objective morality, but that's not necessary and neither here nor there in the calculus.

[jediuser598]

It's also looking at things are they really are instead of how they ought to be. Real politik removes oughts and naughts from the equation and replaces them with wants and necessities. Other people are merely mechanisms to be manipulated to get what you want or need. Nothing more.

Wants and necessities not being morality and/or virtue.

It doesn't matter why you think you want or need something. This way of seeing things just takes that for granted and looks at it as nothing more than your perceived wants and needs, and looks at how people actually think and behave in order to manipulate them to achieve your perceived wants and desires.

That's really all it is. People who adhere to it are realists in every sense. Most of them reject objective morality, but that's not necessary and neither here nor there in the calculus.

We're not in disagreement.

[jediuser598]

It's also looking at things are they really are instead of how they ought to be. Real politik removes oughts and naughts from the equation and replaces them with wants and necessities. Other people are merely mechanisms to be manipulated to get what you want or need. Nothing more.

Wants and necessities not being morality and/or virtue.

It doesn't matter why you think you want or need something. This way of seeing things just takes that for granted and looks at it as nothing more than your perceived wants and needs, and looks at how people actually think and behave in order to manipulate them to achieve your perceived wants and desires.

That's really all it is. People who adhere to it are realists in every sense. Most of them reject objective morality, but that's not necessary and neither here nor there in the calculus.

That picture, are you DSL?

[Okeefenokee]

John Batchelor says what I said.

https://audioboom.com/posts/6495543-gop ... marykissel