The Armory - Guns, Knives, and Axes

[Smitty-48]

How many of these airplanes are in use with this feature, and where else has this been an issue?

It's only the 737-8MAX.

Boeing is trying to squeeze profit out of the 737 design instead of coming out with a new design.

The problem is 737 was designed to be boarded by steps rather than gate.

This puts the engines in a position which makes extending the fuselage unstable.

This results in a center of gravity on the extended MAX 8 fuselage which can cause pitch up stalls.

The system was installed to correct this design flaw.

[The Conservative]

How many of these airplanes are in use with this feature, and where else has this been an issue?

It's only the 737-8MAX.

Boeing is trying to squeeze profit out of the 737 design instead of coming out with a new design.

The problem is 737 was designed to be boarded by steps rather than gate.

This puts the engines in a position which makes extending the fuselage unstable.

This results in a center of gravity on the extended MAX 8 fuselage which can cause pitch up stalls.

The system was installed to correct this design flaw.

Right, but how many of these airplanes are in service/have been grounded?

I'm not arguing the reason behind having the system in it, I am asking a question on how many of the airplanes out there have the system.

[Smitty-48]

How many of these airplanes are in use with this feature, and where else has this been an issue?

It's only the 737-8MAX.

Boeing is trying to squeeze profit out of the 737 design instead of coming out with a new design.

The problem is 737 was designed to be boarded by steps rather than gate.

This puts the engines in a position which makes extending the fuselage unstable.

This results in a center of gravity on the extended MAX 8 fuselage which can cause pitch up stalls.

The system was installed to correct this design flaw.

Right, but how many of these airplanes are in service/have been grounded?

I'm not arguing the reason behind having the system in it, I am asking a question on how many of the airplanes out there have the system.

About 400 or so.

[The Conservative]

It's only the 737-8MAX.

Boeing is trying to squeeze profit out of the 737 design instead of coming out with a new design.

The problem is 737 was designed to be boarded by steps rather than gate.

This puts the engines in a position which makes extending the fuselage unstable.

This results in a center of gravity on the extended MAX 8 fuselage which can cause pitch up stalls.

The system was installed to correct this design flaw.

Right, but how many of these airplanes are in service/have been grounded?

I'm not arguing the reason behind having the system in it, I am asking a question on how many of the airplanes out there have the system.

About 400 or so.

So 400... so 2 airplanes have had that issue which has caused fatalities as a result? Each of those airplanes is from the same country... do you see where I am going?

[Smitty-48]

Well, I wouldn't trust the MAX8.

Not saying you are doomed if you fly on one, but I do find it to be a flawed design.

It's more dangerous than other jets IMO, because it's inherently unstable, corrected only by the FCS.

I mean, that's fine if it's a fighter jet, you want that on a fighter jet, but you don't want that on a passenger jet.

[Smitty-48]

Seems to me, these commercial pilots were confronted with the sort of situation fighter pilots are confronted with.

For example F/A-18 has an infamous design flaw which causes a stall called the "Falling Leaf"

Military fighter pilots are trained to deal with these sorts of issues, commercial pilots are not.

Moreover, there's only one person in a fighter and he has an ejection seat, so inherent instability is worth the risk.

[heydaralon]

Seems to me, these commercial pilots were confronted with the sort of situation fighter pilots are confronted with.

For example F/A-18 has an infamous design flaw which causes a stall called the "Falling Leaf"

Military fighter pilots are trained to deal with these sorts of issues, commercial pilots are not.

Moreover, there's one pilot in a fighter and he has an ejection seat, so inherent instability is worth the risk.

What would happen if you ejected while your plane was upside down? Would you break your neck?

[The Conservative]

Well, I wouldn't trust the MAX8.

Not saying you are doomed if you fly on one, but I do find it to be a flawed design.

It's more dangerous than other jets IMO, because it's inherently unstable, corrected only by the FCS.

I mean, that's fine if it's a fighter jet, you want that on a fighter jet, but you don't want that on a passenger jet.

I don't trust airplanes period, but that's my views of flying in something I can't control...

That being said, my issue is that these people were supposedly trained to fly this airplane, as well as how to turn off the Auto Pilot, if you are telling me that a trained (seasoned) pilot couldn't turn off the Auto Pilot, then I believe we do have an issue.

But what we aren't seeing is a full report yet stating that the pilot couldn't. What we are seeing it the pilot didn't... and if it was as simple as flipping two switches, someone wasn't paying attention in training...or wasn't trained enough to do it.

We need to figure out where the true failure is before blaming a company for something that may have been 100% human error... because for me what I am seeing is that the crashes are from one place only... and no one else over the world has had this same issue.

I don't believe in coincidences.

[Smitty-48]

Seems to me, these commercial pilots were confronted with the sort of situation fighter pilots are confronted with.

For example F/A-18 has an infamous design flaw which causes a stall called the "Falling Leaf"

Military fighter pilots are trained to deal with these sorts of issues, commercial pilots are not.

Moreover, there's one pilot in a fighter and he has an ejection seat, so inherent instability is worth the risk.

What would happen if you ejected while your plane was upside down? Would you break your neck?

Not with the seats and canopies today, there's an explosive cord embedded in the canopy which blows a hole in it, so you don't end up like Goose in Top Gun.

[Smitty-48]

Well, I wouldn't trust the MAX8.

Not saying you are doomed if you fly on one, but I do find it to be a flawed design.

It's more dangerous than other jets IMO, because it's inherently unstable, corrected only by the FCS.

I mean, that's fine if it's a fighter jet, you want that on a fighter jet, but you don't want that on a passenger jet.

I don't trust airplanes period, but that's my views of flying in something I can't control...

That being said, my issue is that these people were supposedly trained to fly this airplane, as well as how to turn off the Auto Pilot, if you are telling me that a trained (seasoned) pilot couldn't turn off the Auto Pilot, then I believe we do have an issue.

But what we aren't seeing is a full report yet stating that the pilot couldn't. What we are seeing it the pilot didn't... and if it was as simple as flipping two switches, someone wasn't paying attention in training...or wasn't trained enough to do it.

We need to figure out where the true failure is before blaming a company for something that may have been 100% human error... because for me what I am seeing is that the crashes are from one place only... and no one else over the world has had this same issue.

I don't believe in coincidences.

I wouldn't trust third world airlines neither; Air Ethiopia? Hard pass, I'll take the train.