Protestant Revolt: Source for good & ill of Modernity

[heydaralon]

And I'm looking for that to.

You can tell *you're a history teacher not an English teacher.

*your

Fixed that for you

[Montegriffo]

And I'm looking for that to.

You can tell *you're a history teacher not an English teacher.

*your

Fixed that for you

Are you incorrecting my grammar there Darlin?

Plus you're missing a full stop (period).

[heydaralon]

You can tell *you're a history teacher not an English teacher.

*your

Fixed that for you

Are you incorrecting my grammar there Darlin?

Plus you're missing a full stop (period).

It is considered good form when ending a sentence to add a compliment to the previous poster above you. Preferably one about his appearance. Additionally, when ending a sentence, you don't need to put (period). You just add the dot (.). The dot tells people the sentence is done, and the parentheses with the word are superfluous.

[Montegriffo]

It is considered good form when ending a sentence to add a compliment to the previous poster above you. Preferably one about his appearance. Additionally, when ending a sentence, you don't need to put (period). You just add the dot (.). The dot tells people the sentence is done, and the parentheses with the word are superfluous.

Where's my compliment then? You handsome motherfucker.

[heydaralon]

It is considered good form when ending a sentence to add a compliment to the previous poster above you. Preferably one about his appearance. Additionally, when ending a sentence, you don't need to put (period). You just add the dot (.). The dot tells people the sentence is done, and the parentheses with the word are superfluous.

Where's my compliment then? You handsome motherfucker.

The cat in your picture looks like it has had all its shots, and seems to have very healthy white teeth

[GloryofGreece]

The idea of "predestination" and "faith alone" never held for me. Its curious how it caught on...

You gotta love how Luther was like, "o shit now the peasants want more rights!" o shit...

[heydaralon]

The idea of "predestination" and "faith alone" never held for me. Its curious how it caught on...

You gotta love how Luther was like, "o shit now the peasants want more rights!" o shit...

It seems to me that the Bible has predestination written all over it. I realize that free will is a huge component of Christian morality, but think about all the prophecies in the Old Testament that were fulfilled in the New Testament by Jesus. What do you mean by faith alone? Are you saying that someone won't recieve eternal salvation if they did not commit enough good acts? I am not a Theologian, but there is some evidence of "faith alone" (assuming that is what you mean by that phrase) being enough in the New Testament.

The thief on the cross who Christ said would be in paradise with him is one example. The fact that Jesus spent his limited and valuable time with prostitutes, tax collectors, and even Gentiles (remember the story about the crumbs and the dogs?). The actions of those folks did not give them a place in Heaven, but rather their reception of Christ and his message. In the Gospels, Christ often mocked those like the Pharisees and Sadducees who would give lavishly to the temple or perform charity and make it a public event, even going so far as to have a crowd and trumpet blowing when they dropped money into the collection box. He said that since we are cursed with original sin, there is nothing we can do in terms of actions that will raise us from that state beyond accepting Christ into our hearts. I'm not dissing charity or noble acts at all, but they are not the most important part of the equation.

There is also a parable about the workers. Some workers started working at the crack of dawn. Some came at breakfast, some around noon, and some before sunset. Some came right as the job ended and the sun went down. The master paid all of them the same. The early workers were outraged, but the master defended his actions. Don't you think that applies to faith? There are people who have done extraordinary things as Christians, and who have lived their entire lives in an upright and positive way. Other people commit abhorrent acts and make mistake after mistake, leaving misery and destruction in their wake, but come to Christ far later in life. It seems to me that the Bible is saying that in the eyes of God, both of these folks are equal, because in God's eyes we are all sinners and from his vantage point the degrees of sin between individuals is miniscule. Taken to its logical conclusion, this is a radical and very upsetting idea. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but that is my opinion about the scripture. There are many on here who know more about the Bible than I do and have a different take. Maybe you do as well.

[GloryofGreece]

The idea of "predestination" and "faith alone" never held for me. Its curious how it caught on...

You gotta love how Luther was like, "o shit now the peasants want more rights!" o shit...

It seems to me that the Bible has predestination written all over it. I realize that free will is a huge component of Christian morality, but think about all the prophecies in the Old Testament that were fulfilled in the New Testament by Jesus. What do you mean by faith alone? Are you saying that someone won't recieve eternal salvation if they did not commit enough good acts? I am not a Theologian, but there is some evidence of "faith alone" (assuming that is what you mean by that phrase) being enough in the New Testament.

The thief on the cross who Christ said would be in paradise with him is one example. The fact that Jesus spent his limited and valuable time with prostitutes, tax collectors, and even Gentiles (remember the story about the crumbs and the dogs?). The actions of those folks did not give them a place in Heaven, but rather their reception of Christ and his message. In the Gospels, Christ often mocked those like the Pharisees and Sadducees who would give lavishly to the temple or perform charity and make it a public event, even going so far as to have a crowd and trumpet blowing when they dropped money into the collection box. He said that since we are cursed with original sin, there is nothing we can do in terms of actions that will raise us from that state beyond accepting Christ into our hearts. I'm not dissing charity or noble acts at all, but they are not the most important part of the equation.

There is also a parable about the workers. Some workers started working at the crack of dawn. Some came at breakfast, some around noon, and some before sunset. Some came right as the job ended and the sun went down. The master paid all of them the same. The early workers were outraged, but the master defended his actions. Don't you think that applies to faith? There are people who have done extraordinary things as Christians, and who have lived their entire lives in an upright and positive way. Other people commit abhorrent acts and make mistake after mistake, leaving misery and destruction in their wake, but come to Christ far later in life. It seems to me that the Bible is saying that in the eyes of God, both of these folks are equal, because in God's eyes we are all sinners and from his vantage point the degrees of sin between individuals is miniscule. Taken to its logical conclusion, this is a radical and very upsetting idea. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but that is my opinion about the scripture. There are many on here who know more about the Bible than I do and have a different take. Maybe you do as well.

I don't agree that "faith alone" is enough for salvation. Neither does the One Holy Catholic Apostalic Church.

Those who call themselves Christians, whether Catholic or heretic, will all say that to be a Christian is to “follow Christ” or to be a “disciple of Christ.” Both of these concepts have very obvious ramifications. To follow someone, is to go wherever he leads. To be someone’s disciple is to learn his teachings, to belong to his “school of thought.” Both of these concepts imply commitment. When our Lord invited people to follow him, it was never an unconditional relationship in which the follower could “do his own thing.” Now we will see what Holy Scripture tells us about this commitment in terms of our subject.

In the Gospel of St. Luke, Jesus says, “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?” (9: 23-25)
http://catholicism.org/faith-and-good-works.html
I could go on but I won't. The article above sums it up decently enough.

[heydaralon]

The idea of "predestination" and "faith alone" never held for me. Its curious how it caught on...

You gotta love how Luther was like, "o shit now the peasants want more rights!" o shit...

It seems to me that the Bible has predestination written all over it. I realize that free will is a huge component of Christian morality, but think about all the prophecies in the Old Testament that were fulfilled in the New Testament by Jesus. What do you mean by faith alone? Are you saying that someone won't recieve eternal salvation if they did not commit enough good acts? I am not a Theologian, but there is some evidence of "faith alone" (assuming that is what you mean by that phrase) being enough in the New Testament.

The thief on the cross who Christ said would be in paradise with him is one example. The fact that Jesus spent his limited and valuable time with prostitutes, tax collectors, and even Gentiles (remember the story about the crumbs and the dogs?). The actions of those folks did not give them a place in Heaven, but rather their reception of Christ and his message. In the Gospels, Christ often mocked those like the Pharisees and Sadducees who would give lavishly to the temple or perform charity and make it a public event, even going so far as to have a crowd and trumpet blowing when they dropped money into the collection box. He said that since we are cursed with original sin, there is nothing we can do in terms of actions that will raise us from that state beyond accepting Christ into our hearts. I'm not dissing charity or noble acts at all, but they are not the most important part of the equation.

There is also a parable about the workers. Some workers started working at the crack of dawn. Some came at breakfast, some around noon, and some before sunset. Some came right as the job ended and the sun went down. The master paid all of them the same. The early workers were outraged, but the master defended his actions. Don't you think that applies to faith? There are people who have done extraordinary things as Christians, and who have lived their entire lives in an upright and positive way. Other people commit abhorrent acts and make mistake after mistake, leaving misery and destruction in their wake, but come to Christ far later in life. It seems to me that the Bible is saying that in the eyes of God, both of these folks are equal, because in God's eyes we are all sinners and from his vantage point the degrees of sin between individuals is miniscule. Taken to its logical conclusion, this is a radical and very upsetting idea. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but that is my opinion about the scripture. There are many on here who know more about the Bible than I do and have a different take. Maybe you do as well.

I don't agree that "faith alone" is enough for salvation. Neither does the One Holy Catholic Apostalic Church.

Those who call themselves Christians, whether Catholic or heretic, will all say that to be a Christian is to “follow Christ” or to be a “disciple of Christ.” Both of these concepts have very obvious ramifications. To follow someone, is to go wherever he leads. To be someone’s disciple is to learn his teachings, to belong to his “school of thought.” Both of these concepts imply commitment. When our Lord invited people to follow him, it was never an unconditional relationship in which the follower could “do his own thing.” Now we will see what Holy Scripture tells us about this commitment in terms of our subject.

In the Gospel of St. Luke, Jesus says, “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?” (9: 23-25)
http://catholicism.org/faith-and-good-works.html
I could go on but I won't. The article above sums it up decently enough.

You might be right idk. I was raised Protestant, so a lot of the stuff that Catholics hold dear was de-emphasized by my mom and my church. You cited some verses, but I think the message of Christ was very spiritually egalitarian. I don't think the thief or Zacheus would have been mentioned if this were true. Where is the cutoff point for good actions? If I am a mass murdering war criminal, and I accept Christ on my deathbed, will I go to heaven? You would say no I guess. Ok, fair enough. What if I was the same monstrous sinner, but I accepted Christ 10 years before I died, and did good stuff from then on out? What about then? What if I did this five years before I died? What about 1? I don't have a good answer, but I feel like if the Bible said that good acts got us into heaven, it would have been far more detailed about what those good acts need to consist of, and how long they need. Its not like the Bible doesn't get really legal when it feels like it is important for us to know. Leviticus and Deuteronomy are full of all kinds of this sort of legalistic moral code. I made a thread asking Catholics questions (that I have no idea what the answer is) in current events. I need to go to sleep dude. I would be delighted to continue this debate tomorrow after work if you want. I'm gonna go to sleep and we can pick this back up tomorrow.

[GloryofGreece]

It seems to me that the Bible has predestination written all over it. I realize that free will is a huge component of Christian morality, but think about all the prophecies in the Old Testament that were fulfilled in the New Testament by Jesus. What do you mean by faith alone? Are you saying that someone won't recieve eternal salvation if they did not commit enough good acts? I am not a Theologian, but there is some evidence of "faith alone" (assuming that is what you mean by that phrase) being enough in the New Testament.

The thief on the cross who Christ said would be in paradise with him is one example. The fact that Jesus spent his limited and valuable time with prostitutes, tax collectors, and even Gentiles (remember the story about the crumbs and the dogs?). The actions of those folks did not give them a place in Heaven, but rather their reception of Christ and his message. In the Gospels, Christ often mocked those like the Pharisees and Sadducees who would give lavishly to the temple or perform charity and make it a public event, even going so far as to have a crowd and trumpet blowing when they dropped money into the collection box. He said that since we are cursed with original sin, there is nothing we can do in terms of actions that will raise us from that state beyond accepting Christ into our hearts. I'm not dissing charity or noble acts at all, but they are not the most important part of the equation.

There is also a parable about the workers. Some workers started working at the crack of dawn. Some came at breakfast, some around noon, and some before sunset. Some came right as the job ended and the sun went down. The master paid all of them the same. The early workers were outraged, but the master defended his actions. Don't you think that applies to faith? There are people who have done extraordinary things as Christians, and who have lived their entire lives in an upright and positive way. Other people commit abhorrent acts and make mistake after mistake, leaving misery and destruction in their wake, but come to Christ far later in life. It seems to me that the Bible is saying that in the eyes of God, both of these folks are equal, because in God's eyes we are all sinners and from his vantage point the degrees of sin between individuals is miniscule. Taken to its logical conclusion, this is a radical and very upsetting idea. I'm not sure how I feel about it, but that is my opinion about the scripture. There are many on here who know more about the Bible than I do and have a different take. Maybe you do as well.

I don't agree that "faith alone" is enough for salvation. Neither does the One Holy Catholic Apostalic Church.

Those who call themselves Christians, whether Catholic or heretic, will all say that to be a Christian is to “follow Christ” or to be a “disciple of Christ.” Both of these concepts have very obvious ramifications. To follow someone, is to go wherever he leads. To be someone’s disciple is to learn his teachings, to belong to his “school of thought.” Both of these concepts imply commitment. When our Lord invited people to follow him, it was never an unconditional relationship in which the follower could “do his own thing.” Now we will see what Holy Scripture tells us about this commitment in terms of our subject.

In the Gospel of St. Luke, Jesus says, “If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?” (9: 23-25)
http://catholicism.org/faith-and-good-works.html
I could go on but I won't. The article above sums it up decently enough.

You might be right idk. I was raised Protestant, so a lot of the stuff that Catholics hold dear was de-emphasized by my mom and my church. You cited some verses, but I think the message of Christ was very spiritually egalitarian. I don't think the thief or Zacheus would have been mentioned if this were true. Where is the cutoff point for good actions? If I am a mass murdering war criminal, and I accept Christ on my deathbed, will I go to heaven? You would say no I guess. Ok, fair enough. What if I was the same monstrous sinner, but I accepted Christ 10 years before I died, and did good stuff from then on out? What about then? What if I did this five years before I died? What about 1? I don't have a good answer, but I feel like if the Bible said that good acts got us into heaven, it would have been far more detailed about what those good acts need to consist of, and how long they need. Its not like the Bible doesn't get really legal when it feels like it is important for us to know. Leviticus and Deuteronomy are full of all kinds of this sort of legalistic moral code. I made a thread asking Catholics questions (that I have no idea what the answer is) in current events. I need to go to sleep dude. I would be delighted to continue this debate tomorrow after work if you want. I'm gonna go to sleep and we can pick this back up tomorrow.

I make a separation between the Old and New Testament. I think the overall point of the Gospel is to show the reader what Jesus was like. And the point of Christianity is to be more Christ like. He makes it very clear what that means by what he is quoted as specifically saying and doing. At the end of the day most the questions you asked are unanswerable. If one is being honest and humble then you know I cannot answer who gets into Heaven. Only God knows if and when you have atoned for your sins.