A True Viking Saga

[Otern]

If Feudalism didn't really take hold in Norway, what was their society structured around in the Middle Ages? Was it better to be a farmer/peasant there than England for example?

Norway has always been a largely decentralized society. So even with a Danish king for the late medieval period, it was really left to its own devices, apart from the higher positions in the church and the state.

I think it was a lot better to be a peasant in Norway than England (or Scotland) for most of the middle ages. One civil war lasting 110 years, and otherwise getting between Sweden's and Denmark's wars wasn't all that good, but compared to England, it was a cakewalk. Mountains put a stop to any danish nobleman trying to meddle. (Seriously, if you've ever seen a Dane trying to walk uphill, you'll understand).

[Otern]

By the high middle ages, the Scandinavians were totally Christianized and civilized. Their knights were among the best of the crusades too. They had some success in crushing the filthy Finns as well.

Christianity didn't have as much say in whatever civilized Scandinavia means. The degree of "civilization" was pretty much the same before and after Christianity, although christianity did manage to improve written records and literacy.

[Speaker to Animals]

By the high middle ages, the Scandinavians were totally Christianized and civilized. Their knights were among the best of the crusades too. They had some success in crushing the filthy Finns as well.

Christianity didn't have as much say in whatever civilized Scandinavia means. The degree of "civilization" was pretty much the same before and after Christianity, although christianity did manage to improve written records and literacy.

Literacy being the operative word here...

[Otern]

By the high middle ages, the Scandinavians were totally Christianized and civilized. Their knights were among the best of the crusades too. They had some success in crushing the filthy Finns as well.

Christianity didn't have as much say in whatever civilized Scandinavia means. The degree of "civilization" was pretty much the same before and after Christianity, although christianity did manage to improve written records and literacy.

Literacy being the operative word here...

Well yeah. But I'm not exactly sure how common literacy was before Christianity. Kind of hard to say, since most of the written records weren't books or anything like that, just messages on sticks. So people could definitely read and write, but there's no way of saying how many of them could.

Christianity did a lot of great things with the centralization of written records, and copying written records. But with Christianity, so came the monopolization of literacy, it was something taught in monasteries rather than something for merchants and other commoners.

[Speaker to Animals]

It was near zero since you guys lacked a written language.

It was similar for our Saxon ancestors. They came to Britain as barbarians and we're civilized by the Church. After learning Latin, they applied the Latin alphabet to create their own written language. Christianization resulted in the Saxon Rennaisance.

[Otern]

It was near zero since you guys lacked a written language.

It was similar for our Saxon ancestors. They came to Britain as barbarians and we're civilized by the Church. After learning Latin, they applied the Latin alphabet to create their own written language. Christianization resulted in the Saxon Rennaisance.

We had a written language. It was just simply not used for recording history, or writing stories. Don't know why we didn't though. Only things being dug up now is some guy in the 700th century writing on some wood; "Asgeir got fucked in the ass by Guttorm, and he liked it". So, people definitely could write before Christianity, but they didn't think people would ever care to read it thousands of years in the future.

Christianity managed to turn the oral tradition of storytelling into a written form. While shitposting has always been a thing here.

[Hwen Hoshino]

It was near zero since you guys lacked a written language.

It was similar for our Saxon ancestors. They came to Britain as barbarians and we're civilized by the Church. After learning Latin, they applied the Latin alphabet to create their own written language. Christianization resulted in the Saxon Rennaisance.

We had a written language. It was just simply not used for recording history, or writing stories. Don't know why we didn't though. Only things being dug up now is some guy in the 700th century writing on some wood; "Asgeir got fucked in the ass by Guttorm, and he liked it". So, people definitely could write before Christianity, but they didn't think people would ever care to read it thousands of years in the future.

Christianity managed to turn the oral tradition of storytelling into a written form. While shitposting has always been a thing here.

The Mongols also tended to not keep records.

[BjornP]

It was near zero since you guys lacked a written language.

It was similar for our Saxon ancestors. They came to Britain as barbarians and we're civilized by the Church. After learning Latin, they applied the Latin alphabet to create their own written language. Christianization resulted in the Saxon Rennaisance.

(I'll let you research was it actually depicts for yourself)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorsberg_chape

Anglish (as in from the Angles, and from the region of Angeln) part of a scabbard with runic inscription, dated ca. 200AD.

Anglo-Saxon runes were used up untill around the 10th century in the Anglo-Saxon parts of the British Isles. In England, their use was somewhat ironically banned by king Canute. They were still allowed in Scandinavia, though, and were in common use throughout the Middle Ages. Christian runestones were not excatly rare, either. (google image search "christian runestones" for yourself, if you like) Or early 13th cent. Danish church bells:

http://www.arild-hauge.com/arild-hauge/ ... _NMC_2.jpg
(somewhat large picture. Text invokes the Virgin Mary)

And it would be imprecise to simply say that "they" (meaning "the" Anglo-Saxons) learned Latin. A few who became clergy, and a very few select others (some nobles and kings) did. As was the case for everybody else in Western Europe, tbh. It would be cheaper and more practical to learn a living language used by - say the people you made most of your deals with, as opposed to having to spend money on tutoring in proper Latin, if you need a trade language. That's great if you're a Venetian merchant prince, but if you're a Welsh merchant just selling salted cod to Bretons on the other side of the English Channel, you might stick with learning another language simply by ear and through speaking with others. Saves you the trouble of having to learn how to read, as well.

Well yeah. But I'm not exactly sure how common literacy was before Christianity. Kind of hard to say, since most of the written records weren't books or anything like that, just messages on sticks. So people could definitely read and write, but there's no way of saying how many of them could.

Well, there is one curious example of the degree of runic literacy among Viking Age Swedes:

http://fof.se/tidning/2010/7/att-lasa-mellan-runorna

To recap that article, Viking Age Swedes carved runestones using genuine, or even made up runestones, without being able to actually spell. Apparantly on more than one occasion, which leads the archaeologist in question to conclude that the target audience generally couldn't read, but that it would have been prestigious to be able to (why else carve a fake runestone, after all, if you don't get prestige for it? )

The Mongols also tended to not keep records.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_script

It would have been kind of...impossible to manage an empire the size of the Mongol empire without record keeping. Unless you don't want to know if your subjects have paid their taxes and tithes.

[Hastur]

In some parts of Sweden runes vere used up into the 20th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalecarlian_runes





Swedish immigrants have even used them in the US.

[Speaker to Animals]

But were runes an actual alphabet? I thought they just represented specific meanings. Like a life rune, or a death rune, etc.