Unite the Right

[Speaker to Animals]

That's the tragedy of that fucking war. Slavery was abhorrent and had to be eradicated. The only way that was obviously going to happen was through violence. But in making slavery the straw that broke the camel's back, they basically ensured we would be enslaved under a federal leviathan for centuries.

We really need to discuss going back to a Confederation. This federal government idea has been a violent shit show from day one.

[Penner]

Well he only got there, because he refused to take part in the Union's unlawful agression against the State of Virginia in 1861, so it is sort of romantic, that Robert E. Lee was so chivalrous, that he would not betray his people on behalf of a tyrannical government, even though to defy this government would ultimately result in his utter defeat, which he knew would probably be the case, quite romantic that, actually, he's like a man from an earlier age, practically medieval in his ethos.

South Carolina was unlawful, by attacking Fort Sumter without cause.

[Speaker to Animals]

Massachusetts was unlawful for attacking those British troops too..

[Smitty-48]

South Carolina was unlawful, by attacking Fort Sumter without cause.

Once South Carolina had exercised their right to self determination by democratic means, the refusal of the Union to withdraw military forces from their territory was a de facto occupation warranting collective and individual self defense from.

To wit, if Fort Sumter was unlawful, then so was Bunker Hill.

[katarn]

Well he only got there, because he refused to take part in the Union's unlawful agression against the State of Virginia in 1861, so it is sort of romantic, that Robert E. Lee was so chivalrous, that he would not betray his people on behalf of a tyrannical government, even though to defy this government would ultimately result in his utter defeat, which he knew would probably be the case, quite romantic that, actually, he's like a man from an earlier age, practically medieval in his ethos.

South Carolina was unlawful, by attacking Fort Sumter without cause.

I thought I explained that. Do you disagree with my (and now Smitty's) point, or did you skim past them?

[katarn]

The South were traitors though during the Civil War. The problem is that even today you get this romanticization of the South as noble and virtuous warriors fighting for "states' rights" is just bullshit created in the aftermath of the war. Lee chose his state over his country and paid the price for it. the other southern states choose their state's interest over their nation and all paid the price for it. It's just after the war they tried to romanticize it and created a bunch of myths that are still prevalent today. Like the myth that the North were the aggressors when in fact South Carolina was the first to lead an attack on Fort Sumter because the wrong person was elected president.

Remember several things. They were fighting against federal overreach as they perceived it, which most on here- the Liberalist-y bunch- would see as admirable. However, the particular rights they fought for were the rights to keep slaves, which is abhorrent.

Second, of course Lee chose state over country. At the time, it was at least as common if not more to identify as a Virginian or a New Yorker before an American. The Civil War and the time directly preceding and following it is when the federal government became bigger than states for sure.

To use a line I heard somewhere: Before the Civil War, Presidents said "the United States are..." Only after it did they say "The United States is."

There was no federal overreach. Lincoln was just elected and they freaked out because he was an abolitionist (and I would like to point out Lincoln was more about gradual/generational abolishment). the South took up arms against their own countrymen because Lincoln won.

As with choosing state over his country- he was a military man he should've sided with his country. But you are right, the Civil War was the movement that redefined America. Instead of "well, do I choose my state or my country" it became, "country over state". Still again, their is this group of people that just want to to revert back to "my state" or whatever and want to dissovle the coutnry.

Lincoln was no abolitionist at the start of the war. He thought slavery was evil, and an embarassment to American values, but not really an abolitionist. I know that's what your parenthetical phrase was intended to portray, but it's worth highlighting. Emancipation only became an idea during the war as a way to weaken the South. Of course, it was a weird idea to the Confederates that Lincoln was trying to issue laws to another country.

At the start, Lincoln said that the war was about preserving the Union (which is what it was being fought for by the North, almost no one wanted Abolition enough to got to war over), and that if he could do it without touching slavery in the South, he would.

[Smitty-48]

I thought I explained that. Do you disagree with my (and now Smitty's) point, or did you skim past them?

Penner really has no other option but to twist herself into a pretzel of logical fallacy in order to justify the Yankees fundamentally anti-democratic might makes right position vis a vis self determination for anybody other than themselves, under the false rubric of "we were freeing the slaves", which if you haven't noticed already, is the Yankees modus operandi, from Fort Sumter, to Cuba, the Phillipines, the Gulf of Tonkin, and beyond.

It's ye olde Gulf of Fort Tonkin Resolution game which they play. As much as George Washington was the Original Virginia Seceshe, Sheman's march to the sea, the Original Operation Rolling Thunder.

[Fife]

Well he only got there, because he refused to take part in the Union's unlawful agression against the State of Virginia in 1861, so it is sort of romantic, that Robert E. Lee was so chivalrous, that he would not betray his people on behalf of a tyrannical government, even though to defy this government would ultimately result in his utter defeat, which he knew would probably be the case, quite romantic that, actually, he's like a man from an earlier age, practically medieval in his ethos.

South Carolina was unlawful, by attacking Fort Sumter without cause.

I thought I explained that. Do you disagree with my (and now Smitty's) point, or did you skim past them?

Your point, and Smits, is doubleplusungood. Don't skim past that.

[Okeefenokee]

The South were traitors though during the Civil War. The problem is that even today you get this romanticization of the South as noble and virtuous warriors fighting for "states' rights" is just bullshit created in the aftermath of the war. Lee chose his state over his country and paid the price for it. the other southern states choose their state's interest over their nation and all paid the price for it. It's just after the war they tried to romanticize it and created a bunch of myths that are still prevalent today. Like the myth that the North were the aggressors when in fact South Carolina was the first to lead an attack on Fort Sumter because the wrong person was elected president.

Remember several things. They were fighting against federal overreach as they perceived it, which most on here- the Liberalist-y bunch- would see as admirable. However, the particular rights they fought for were the rights to keep slaves, which is abhorrent.

Second, of course Lee chose state over country. At the time, it was at least as common if not more to identify as a Virginian or a New Yorker before an American. The Civil War and the time directly preceding and following it is when the federal government became bigger than states for sure.

To use a line I heard somewhere: Before the Civil War, Presidents said "the United States are..." Only after it did they say "The United States is."

There was no federal overreach. Lincoln was just elected and they freaked out because he was an abolitionist (and I would like to point out Lincoln was more about gradual/generational abolishment). the South took up arms against their own countrymen because Lincoln won.

As with choosing state over his country- he was a military man he should've sided with his country. But you are right, the Civil War was the movement that redefined America. Instead of "well, do I choose my state or my country" it became, "country over state". Still again, their is this group of people that just want to to revert back to "my state" or whatever and want to dissovle the coutnry.

Virginia was his country. You're really ignorant.

[Okeefenokee]

Remember several things. They were fighting against federal overreach as they perceived it, which most on here- the Liberalist-y bunch- would see as admirable. However, the particular rights they fought for were the rights to keep slaves, which is abhorrent.

Second, of course Lee chose state over country. At the time, it was at least as common if not more to identify as a Virginian or a New Yorker before an American. The Civil War and the time directly preceding and following it is when the federal government became bigger than states for sure.

To use a line I heard somewhere: Before the Civil War, Presidents said "the United States are..." Only after it did they say "The United States is."

There was no federal overreach. Lincoln was just elected and they freaked out because he was an abolitionist (and I would like to point out Lincoln was more about gradual/generational abolishment). the South took up arms against their own countrymen because Lincoln won.

As with choosing state over his country- he was a military man he should've sided with his country. But you are right, the Civil War was the movement that redefined America. Instead of "well, do I choose my state or my country" it became, "country over state". Still again, their is this group of people that just want to to revert back to "my state" or whatever and want to dissovle the coutnry.

Lincoln was no abolitionist at the start of the war. He thought slavery was evil, and an embarassment to American values, but not really an abolitionist. I know that's what your parenthetical phrase was intended to portray, but it's worth highlighting. Emancipation only became an idea during the war as a way to weaken the South. Of course, it was a weird idea to the Confederates that Lincoln was trying to issue laws to another country.

At the start, Lincoln said that the war was about preserving the Union (which is what it was being fought for by the North, almost no one wanted Abolition enough to got to war over), and that if he could do it without touching slavery in the South, he would.

There were riots in the north after the war's purpose was restated to be emancipation.