The Destroyer of All Western Values

[heydaralon]

Eagle Claw led to both, first JSOC, then SOCOM, JSOC wouldn't have been enough to fix the problems with Eagle Claw, because the interoperability deficiencies were above command level, all the way up at the Pentagon. JSOC to execute the mission, SOCOM to make the four services work in concert to support it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the SEALS get bin laden? Was that part of a JSOC operation?

[heydaralon]

There's a big difference between weakness and failure, green lighting Eagle Claw wasn't weak; the weak and meek would never have tried.

I agree with you that it was a ballsy mission, but imo Carter was just not good at projecting toughness. He was too nice a guy for the job. He came off as Mr. Rogers. Like when he wore that sweater in the Oval Office and said we need to conserve energy. Dan has a fucking hard on for that speech lol. I forgot about Camp David until you brought it up. That was an important moment for Middle Eastern politics, so perhaps I'm being too harsh on the guy. Carter also was the one who started the arming of the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan, which arguably had great short term benefits for US Cold War policy and poor long term ones. Kind of a mixed legacy guy.

[Smitty-48]

Eagle Claw led to both, first JSOC, then SOCOM, JSOC wouldn't have been enough to fix the problems with Eagle Claw, because the interoperability deficiencies were above command level, all the way up at the Pentagon. JSOC to execute the mission, SOCOM to make the four services work in concert to support it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the SEALS get bin laden? Was that part of a JSOC operation?

Neptune Spear; Joint Operation; NSA, NGA, CIA Special Activities Operators, JSOC DEVGRU, JSOC Nightstalkers.

[Smitty-48]

There's a big difference between weakness and failure, green lighting Eagle Claw wasn't weak; the weak and meek would never have tried.

I agree with you that it was a ballsy mission, but imo Carter was just not good at projecting toughness. He was too nice a guy for the job. He came off as Mr. Rogers. Like when he wore that sweater in the Oval Office and said we need to conserve energy. Dan has a fucking hard on for that speech lol. I forgot about Camp David until you brought it up. That was an important moment for Middle Eastern politics, so perhaps I'm being too harsh on the guy. Carter also was the one who started the arming of the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan, which arguably had great short term benefits for US Cold War policy and poor long term ones. Kind of a mixed legacy guy.

Carter was tough, Carter was tough enough to throw the Eagle Claw hail mary, Carter was tough enough to push for the neutron bomb, Carter was tough enough to force the Isrealis and Egyptians together, Carter was tough enough to personally walk into the control room at Three Mile Island when everybody thought it was about to meltdown.

Carter was too tough actually, because domestically, that was the whole problem, couldn't get along with anybody, wouldn't listen to alternative views, tried to ram everything through, by sheer stubborn persitence and nothing else, and in the process, ground everything to a halt. Carter went to war with everybody, not just the Republicans, the Democrats too, the Democrats more than the Rebublicans in fact. And not just the Congress, he went to war with his own people too, Carter tried to act like a tyrant, and ended up a despot with nowhere to turn.

Finally, out of sheer frustration with the corner he had boxed himself into, he lashed out at the American people, live on TV, with the Malaise Speech, a dressing down, sort of like Hitler, "It's not me, it's you, the American people have failed, der krieg ist forlorn..."

Eagle Claw hail mary; I don't fault him for that. "Fuuuuuuuuuck!!! Der krieg ist forlorn"; what a jackass.

[skankhunt42]

There's a big difference between weakness and failure, green lighting Eagle Claw wasn't weak; the weak and meek would never have tried.

I agree with you that it was a ballsy mission, but imo Carter was just not good at projecting toughness. He was too nice a guy for the job. He came off as Mr. Rogers. Like when he wore that sweater in the Oval Office and said we need to conserve energy. Dan has a fucking hard on for that speech lol. I forgot about Camp David until you brought it up. That was an important moment for Middle Eastern politics, so perhaps I'm being too harsh on the guy. Carter also was the one who started the arming of the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan, which arguably had great short term benefits for US Cold War policy and poor long term ones. Kind of a mixed legacy guy.

Carter was tough, Carter was tough enough to throw the Eagle Claw hail mary, Carter was tough enough to push for the neutron bomb, Carter was tough enough to force the Isrealis and Egyptians together, Carter was tough enough to personally walk into the control room at Three Mile Island when everybody thought it was about to meltdown.

Carter was too tough actually, because domestically, that was the whole problem, couldn't get along with anybody, wouldn't listen to alternative views, tried to ram everything through, by sheer stubborn persitence and nothing else, and in the process, ground everything to a halt. Carter went to war with everybody, not just the Republicans, the Democrats too, the Democrats more than the Rebublicans in fact. And not just the Congress, he went to war with his own people too, Carter tried to act like a tyrant, and ended up a despot with nowhere to turn.

Finally, out of sheer frustration with the corner he had boxed himself into, he lashed out at the American people, live on TV, with the Malaise Speech, a dressing down, sort of like Hitler, "It's not me, it's you, the American people have failed, der krieg ist forlorn..."

Eagle Claw hail mary; I don't fault him for that. "Fuuuuuuuuuck!!! Der krieg ist forlorn"; what a jackass.

One of the most interesting takes on Carter I've ever read.

[Smitty-48]

Well, the victors write the history, so the general take on Carter; is the Republican's narrative, but they edit out all the nuance and just stick to their campaign script; "weak, indecisive, blah-blah-blah", but he was actually the opposite, so much the opposite in fact, he blew himself up. It was Carter's way, or the highway, but the net result was; mutiny.

In the end, the American public has a bizarre perception of "tough" and "weak" , I mean, George Herbert Walker Bush was a real deal World War Two fighter bomber pilot, in World War Two Ronald Reagan was a Hollywood Liberal Rodeo Clown.

To the American people, Reagan's silly cowboy act; was "tough", whereas George Herbet Walker shot down in a TBF Avenger at the Battle of the Phillipine Sea Bush; was a "wimp".

George Herbert Walker Bush never played on the fact that he was a war hero.

Ronald Reagan said that he had "seen the Nazi death camps in World War Two", when he never even left the country, he just made that up.

Unfortunately, George Herbert Walker Bush succumb to the American peoples strange doctrine of phony "tough", when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, because Bush's initial reaction was "not America's problem", but then the Neocons got to him and said that would look "weak", so he felt the need to go overboard, to try to shake the "wimp" label, digging America into a Mesopotamian quagmire which persists to this day.

[Smitty-48]

In the context of the times, I differentiate between a guy who got a little bit on the side once in awhile, and then like; John Kennedy, all day everyday and up in his wife's face.

Whatever Nixon got on the side, he certainly kept it under control and on the DL, which, as far as the CinC goes, that's all I will ask.

FDR had a side piece. The guy was crippled though, so what was the point of the sex? Does polio make you numb below the waist? Was it a vanity thing? I thought he died when he was spending time with his mistress.

Well, also, his cousinwife was a quasilesbian, not to mention she was uglier than a bag of smashed crabs, so, I'd cut FDR some slack, political/intellectual marriage. As for paralysis, I don't think he was totally paralyzed, he must have had feeling below the waist, he could stand up and try to walk, he just couldn't get very far.

[Smitty-48]

We don't want war, but Americans will not tolerate weakness either - whether it's real or only in appearance. This is a constant in our politics.

Yeah. I think on a gut level most people feel turned off when their leaders come off as weak, even if they are intelligent and humane. You don't come back from that. I don't know that I agree with your point about Americans not wanting war though. Back when I listened to Common Sense more than I do now, Dan used to sell me on that point. The trouble is, we have ended up in just about every conflict that our government wanted to fight. Even after we did away with the draft, we still fought in questionable wars. Americans always change their mind about a year to 18 months in, and we certainly don't like having to do the fighting ourselves, but it seems like we are perfectly content with sending over a volunteer army for a little while to fight in some faraway country. I'm not happy with this, but its been this way since before I was born, and I don't see it changing. Its just sort of wired into our culture. We pretend like we hate wars, but if thats the case then the whole American 20th century was a lie.

America; is a duelist. Americans conflate war with a duel, a test of prowess, simply to defend one's honour and prove one's daring, this gets America into wars, often quagmires, but the whole point was merely to call someone out for a duel.

Gulf War; duel, America happy. Iraq War; war, America sad.

And the thing is, when you're a duelist, you can't cut your losses, you can't negotiate, and you can't walk away, if its all for honour and daring; that's how you get trapped, "can't back down now, we called these sumbitches out, can't let them whup us, with everybody standing in the street watching.."

Problem generally is, the other guy is fighting a war, not for honour and daring, but with backs against the wall, so they just dig in, hunker down, run and hide, lay boobytraps, whatever works, no honour, no daring, not trying to be heroes, just trying to survive, they play the spoiler, and drag the duelist down into the mire, so it actually becomes a mismatch, where size doesn't matter anymore, just endurance, and a contest of endurance; that's not what Americans signed up for.

Even World War Two, that turned into a contest of endurance, but that wasn't America's plan going in, Americans thought that war was going to be much shorter and easier than it turned out to be too. Obviously America's honour had to be defended and daring proved, after Pearl Harbor, but it was going to be by prowess, American knowhow, American technology, American skill, a daring do, a duel to prove who was the better man, the Norden Bomsight War, it wasn't going to be a brutal slog, once America got involved, but after awhile, reality set in, and when it did, then it became the Firebombing Incendiary War.

Bear in mind, the Americans; they wanted to invade France and march on Berlin, in 1942, the Americans weren't thinking this was going to be a long war, they thought it would be over by 1943, at the latest, and in the Pacific, they thought the Japanese were inferior people, that they couldn't fight, Americans thought that was going to be walkover too.

[heydaralon]

I agree with you that it was a ballsy mission, but imo Carter was just not good at projecting toughness. He was too nice a guy for the job. He came off as Mr. Rogers. Like when he wore that sweater in the Oval Office and said we need to conserve energy. Dan has a fucking hard on for that speech lol. I forgot about Camp David until you brought it up. That was an important moment for Middle Eastern politics, so perhaps I'm being too harsh on the guy. Carter also was the one who started the arming of the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan, which arguably had great short term benefits for US Cold War policy and poor long term ones. Kind of a mixed legacy guy.

Carter was tough, Carter was tough enough to throw the Eagle Claw hail mary, Carter was tough enough to push for the neutron bomb, Carter was tough enough to force the Isrealis and Egyptians together, Carter was tough enough to personally walk into the control room at Three Mile Island when everybody thought it was about to meltdown.

Carter was too tough actually, because domestically, that was the whole problem, couldn't get along with anybody, wouldn't listen to alternative views, tried to ram everything through, by sheer stubborn persitence and nothing else, and in the process, ground everything to a halt. Carter went to war with everybody, not just the Republicans, the Democrats too, the Democrats more than the Rebublicans in fact. And not just the Congress, he went to war with his own people too, Carter tried to act like a tyrant, and ended up a despot with nowhere to turn.

Finally, out of sheer frustration with the corner he had boxed himself into, he lashed out at the American people, live on TV, with the Malaise Speech, a dressing down, sort of like Hitler, "It's not me, it's you, the American people have failed, der krieg ist forlorn..."

Eagle Claw hail mary; I don't fault him for that. "Fuuuuuuuuuck!!! Der krieg ist forlorn"; what a jackass.

One of the most interesting takes on Carter I've ever read.

Agreed!

[heydaralon]

Well, the victors write the history, so the general take on Carter; is the Republican's narrative, but they edit out all the nuance and just stick to their campaign script; "weak, indecisive, blah-blah-blah", but he was actually the opposite, so much the opposite in fact, he blew himself up. It was Carter's way, or the highway, but the net result was; mutiny.

In the end, the American public has a bizarre perception of "tough" and "weak" , I mean, George Herbert Walker Bush was a real deal World War Two fighter bomber pilot, in World War Two Ronald Reagan was a Hollywood Liberal Rodeo Clown.

To the American people, Reagan's silly cowboy act; was "tough", whereas George Herbet Walker shot down in a TBF Avenger at the Battle of the Phillipine Sea Bush; was a "wimp".

George Herbert Walker Bush never played on the fact that he was a war hero.

Ronald Reagan said that he had "seen the Nazi death camps in World War Two", when he never even left the country, he just made that up.

Unfortunately, George Herbert Walker Bush succumb to the American peoples strange doctrine of phony "tough", when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait, because Bush's initial reaction was "not America's problem", but then the Neocons got to him and said that would look "weak", so he felt the need to go overboard, to try to shake the "wimp" label, digging America into a Mesopotamian quagmire which persists to this day.

Ideologically, Reagan started out as a New Deal FDR lover. Its weird when to think about that when you look back at his legacy.