The Destroyer of All Western Values

[Smitty-48]

Not a fan of either of them. I think Carter actually gave the Panama canal away. Then there was the whole Eagle Claw debacle, where Sadiq Khalkali held up the charred arm of a dead American serviceman on Iranian tv from the chopper crash site. Carter did not do shit about it. Rumor has it the Iranians collaborated with Reagan to release the hostages immediately after Reagan won as a final fuck you to Jimmy. Don't know if there's anything to that. To be fair, the hostages were released because of the negotiations and work he put in. That's the weird thing about America. Occasionally, people will say that American people do not want war, yet when Carter tried this approach, he fell on his face, and is sneered at to this day. People do not look on his term fondly, even though at heart I think Carter is a good human being. I don't know what to make of all that.

Oh, I like Carter on Eagle Claw, Eagle Claw was incredibly bold and audacious, Eagle Claw is about the only thing I laud Carter for, that and the Camp David Accords too, but loves me some Eagle Claw, Carter didn't screw that up, it was just a hail mary that didn't score, but I don't fault him for throwing it.

I don't bash Carter on FoPo, it's his domestic agenda which I fault him for.

[heydaralon]

Not a fan of either of them. I think Carter actually gave the Panama canal away. Then there was the whole Eagle Claw debacle, where Sadiq Khalkali held up the charred arm of a dead American serviceman on Iranian tv from the chopper crash site. Carter did not do shit about it. Rumor has it the Iranians collaborated with Reagan to release the hostages immediately after Reagan won as a final fuck you to Jimmy. Don't know if there's anything to that. To be fair, the hostages were released because of the negotiations and work he put in. That's the weird thing about America. Occasionally, people will say that American people do not want war, yet when Carter tried this approach, he fell on his face, and is sneered at to this day. People do not look on his term fondly, even though at heart I think Carter is a good human being. I don't know what to make of all that.

Oh, I like Carter on Eagle Claw, Eagle Claw was incredibly bold and audacious, Eagle Claw is about the only thing I laud Carter for, that and the Camp David Accords too, but loves me some Eagle Claw, Carter didn't screw that up, it was just a hail mary that didn't score, but I don't fault him for throwing it.

I don't bash Carter on FoPo, it's his domestic agenda which I fault him for.

Honestly, I'm not even familiar with Carter's domestic policies. What he is remembered for is the Iranian Hostage Crisis. I know Reagan kicked his ass so I can't imagine the economy was in good shape when he left.

[Smitty-48]

How did Congress manage to pass RICO if it was so mobbed up?

I said mob ties, I didn't say they were mobbed up, what I meant was; six degrees of separation; didn't have to go very far from the center, before you ran into a mobster, none the less, they didn't have executive control, thing is, Hoover's priority was Communists, so the FBI kind of took a live and let live approach with the Mafia, wasn't the priority, the Mafia didn't like Commies neither, but by 1970, the Red Scare started to give way to the Drug Scare, and the drugs is pretty much what brought the mob down, once the Drug Scare kicked in, then the Feds rounded on them.

[heydaralon]

How did Congress manage to pass RICO if it was so mobbed up?

I said mob ties, I didn't say they were mobbed up, what I meant was; six degrees of separation; didn't have to go very far from the center, before you ran into a mobster, none the less, they didn't have executive control, thing is, Hoover's priority was Communists, so the FBI kind of took a live and let live approach with the Mafia, wasn't the priority, the Mafia didn't like Commies neither, but by 1970, the Red Scare started to give way to the Drug Scare, and the drugs is pretty much what brought the mob down, once the Drug Scare kicked in, then the Feds rounded on them.

Do you think there will ever be a resurgence of organized crime that controls things to the extent the mafia did? There is organized crime now, but in America its a shadow of its former self. I wonder if OC will make a comeback. Maybe not even Italians, could be some other ethnic group. That would be wild.

[Smitty-48]

How did Congress manage to pass RICO if it was so mobbed up?

I said mob ties, I didn't say they were mobbed up, what I meant was; six degrees of separation; didn't have to go very far from the center, before you ran into a mobster, none the less, they didn't have executive control, thing is, Hoover's priority was Communists, so the FBI kind of took a live and let live approach with the Mafia, wasn't the priority, the Mafia didn't like Commies neither, but by 1970, the Red Scare started to give way to the Drug Scare, and the drugs is pretty much what brought the mob down, once the Drug Scare kicked in, then the Feds rounded on them.

Do you think there will ever be a resurgence of organized crime that controls things to the extent the mafia did? There is organized crime now, but in America its a shadow of its former self. I wonder if OC will make a comeback. Maybe not even Italians, could be some other ethnic group. That would be wild.

I don't think it will ever have the sweet spot like that again, no, because the sweet spot was more about a monopoly than it was about the government, there's too much OC now, no one faction could ever achieve preeminence like that again, we're postmodern now, postmodern is too decentralized to allow a sweet spot like that to come about.

Modern; the corruption could be like a family business. Postmodern; the corruption is more like an algorythm. The Mafia was analogue, OC now is like a matrix.

[Smitty-48]

What he is remembered for is the Iranian Hostage Crisis. I know Reagan kicked his ass so I can't imagine the economy was in good shape when he left.

If Eagle Claw had worked, it would have been the greatest American action movie moment, perhaps of all time, Reagan didn't kick anybody's ass, because he never took the shot, everytime Delta was ready to roll for Reagan, they got waved off, Carter gave Delta the green light, on what would have been their boldest, most audacious, and glorious operation, to this very day.

In the end, the lessons learned, led to Goldwater-Nicholls and Special Operations Command, so there was consolation, the eight servicemen who died at Desert One, did end up dying for a higher purpose, all said and done.

Eagle Claw, was Entebbe on steroids, would have been mind blowing, if they had pulled it off.

[heydaralon]

What he is remembered for is the Iranian Hostage Crisis. I know Reagan kicked his ass so I can't imagine the economy was in good shape when he left.

If Eagle Claw had worked, it would have been the greatest American action movie moment, perhaps of all time, Reagan didn't kick anybody's ass, because he never took the shot, everytime Delta was ready to roll for Reagan, they got waved off, Carter gave Delta the green light, on what would have been their boldest, most audacious, and glorious operation, to this very day.

In the end, the lessons learned, led to Goldwater-Nicholls and Special Operations Command, so there was consolation, the eight servicemen who died at Desert One, did end up dying for a higher purpose, all said and done.

Eagle Claw, was Entebbe on steroids, would have been mind blowing, if they had pulled it off.

In his book dirty wars, Scahill said that Eagle claw led to the formation of JSOC, which streamlined and connected all the elite units of each branch (I think). Is that the same thing as Special Operations Command you are talking about? is SOC different than JSOC or just a shortened name for the same thing?

[Smitty-48]

Eagle Claw led to both, first JSOC, then SOCOM, JSOC wouldn't have been enough to fix the problems with Eagle Claw, because the interoperability deficiencies were above command level, all the way up at the Pentagon. JSOC to execute the mission, SOCOM to make the four services work in concert to support it.

[heydaralon]

We don't want war, but Americans will not tolerate weakness either - whether it's real or only in appearance. This is a constant in our politics.

Yeah. I think on a gut level most people feel turned off when their leaders come off as weak, even if they are intelligent and humane. You don't come back from that. I don't know that I agree with your point about Americans not wanting war though. Back when I listened to Common Sense more than I do now, Dan used to sell me on that point. The trouble is, we have ended up in just about every conflict that our government wanted to fight. Even after we did away with the draft, we still fought in questionable wars. Americans always change their mind about a year to 18 months in, and we certainly don't like having to do the fighting ourselves, but it seems like we are perfectly content with sending over a volunteer army for a little while to fight in some faraway country. I'm not happy with this, but its been this way since before I was born, and I don't see it changing. Its just sort of wired into our culture. We pretend like we hate wars, but if thats the case then the whole American 20th century was a lie.

[Smitty-48]

There's a big difference between weakness and failure, green lighting Eagle Claw wasn't weak; the weak and meek would never have tried.