Roots

[katarn]

Once again, I'm not disputing that life was nasty, brutish, and short across the globe, prior to the 20th. Indeed, for about half of humanity, it is still that way. That's the difference that I'm pointing out. We live in engineered, climate-controlled bliss, whilst half of our species still struggles to find food and medicine.

Such a disparity was impossible prior to the 20th. As they say, no king could buy a cellphone. Well now every peasant has one, but that does not mean that they're living well, or that the world is more fair due to the domination of Western civ.

We've left half of us far, far behind, and it's not right. That's all. So let's stop pretending that our newest form of society is the gleaming light upon humanity, or even that it's inherently superior to all others, because we are not done evolving. At least, I certainly hope not.



We should keep looking for alternatives, and fighting to change the world, because without that change, we will most surely end in ruin. This is not the best that we can do.

So what should we do to help those in the poorer parts of the world? I fully agree we should, but I think our own issues take priority.

Our own issues have always taken priority. That's how we got here.

At this point, i have no idea how to share the wealth without a complete civilizational redraw because our system is not made to do it.

No good system yet seen really is. The ideology there is socialism.

[jbird4049]

Yes, this is true.

There are reasons why they are catching up now, and in many places are still in terrible messes. The West first got rich by stealing their stuff, and killing anyone who tried to stop them. Our current wealth is from more peaceful means, but the colonial period only really ended in the 1960s.

If you want to have nightmares read up on the Western powers conquest, and colonization of almost the entire planet, with the exceptions of Ethiopia, and Siam. Such conquest often involve not only the destruction of local institutions, but also of local bossiness, including factories, and farms, with the occasional bonus genocide. If you want to add nightmare fuel, look the combined 500+ year African slave trade by the Muslim powers, as well as 300+ trade of the Western nations. For extra credit, read the book The Heart of Darkness, by Joseph Conrad. It's a description of the Belgian Congo under the cover of being fiction.

Those were all terrible. But its not as simple as bad Western powers (and I know thats not exactly your argument). African slavery, after all, was centuries old before Muhammed and his Arabs thought of trading with Kilwa or Mogadishu, and disease was a big factor as well.

What factories were around for the Europeans to destroy?

For starters, the India's textile industry which was very good. However, the British wanted the more profitable textile, and later clothing, industries done in Britain while forcing the less profitable cotton growing.

[katarn]

Yes, this is true.

There are reasons why they are catching up now, and in many places are still in terrible messes. The West first got rich by stealing their stuff, and killing anyone who tried to stop them. Our current wealth is from more peaceful means, but the colonial period only really ended in the 1960s.

If you want to have nightmares read up on the Western powers conquest, and colonization of almost the entire planet, with the exceptions of Ethiopia, and Siam. Such conquest often involve not only the destruction of local institutions, but also of local bossiness, including factories, and farms, with the occasional bonus genocide. If you want to add nightmare fuel, look the combined 500+ year African slave trade by the Muslim powers, as well as 300+ trade of the Western nations. For extra credit, read the book The Heart of Darkness, by Joseph Conrad. It's a description of the Belgian Congo under the cover of being fiction.

Those were all terrible. But its not as simple as bad Western powers (and I know thats not exactly your argument). African slavery, after all, was centuries old before Muhammed and his Arabs thought of trading with Kilwa or Mogadishu, and disease was a big factor as well.

What factories were around for the Europeans to destroy?

For starters, the India's textile industry which was very good. However, the British wanted the more profitable textile, and later clothing, industries done in Britain while forcing the less profitable cotton growing.

India certainly produced a lot of textiles, but they weren't really industrialized; they had no factories in the modern sense of the word. The development of true industry is what most allowed Europeans to dominate other advanced civs like the Chinese and Indians over the last few centuries.

[GloryofGreece]

Rank the following Best to Worst

American Butler
12 Years a Slave
Help
Color Purple
Amistad
Birth of a Nation
Roots

[jbird4049]

Those were all terrible. But its not as simple as bad Western powers (and I know thats not exactly your argument). African slavery, after all, was centuries old before Muhammed and his Arabs thought of trading with Kilwa or Mogadishu, and disease was a big factor as well.

What factories were around for the Europeans to destroy?

For starters, the India's textile industry which was very good. However, the British wanted the more profitable textile, and later clothing, industries done in Britain while forcing the less profitable cotton growing.

India certainly produced a lot of textiles, but they weren't really industrialized; they had no factories in the modern sense of the word. The development of true industry is what most allowed Europeans to dominate other advanced civs like the Chinese and Indians over the last few centuries.

True. Modern factoring that we would recognized only appeared about two hundred years ago. There was massive production but usually, but not only, in small family businesses. All countries had large amounts of manufacturing after all The massive armies, and navies of the Napoleonic Wars, of Mogul, and Chinese Empires, had to be equipped, and supplied, after all. The first appearance of modern style factories took time even in Great Britain. Even before those factories, Britain and Venice made their warships in assembly lines or at least in standard plans with standard parts.

Think of the earlier merchantile system where all manufacturing was supposed to be done only in the home country with the colonies supplying the raw materials. Case in point, the American colonies were, if possible, prevented from even making horse shoe nails. So the Western powers actively prevented, or at least retarded, the growth of manufacturing, and in some places its destruction.

[jbird4049]

Those were all terrible. But its not as simple as bad Western powers (and I know thats not exactly your argument). African slavery, after all, was centuries old before Muhammed and his Arabs thought of trading with Kilwa or Mogadishu, and disease was a big factor as well.

What factories were around for the Europeans to destroy?

For starters, the India's textile industry which was very good. However, the British wanted the more profitable textile, and later clothing, industries done in Britain while forcing the less profitable cotton growing.

India certainly produced a lot of textiles, but they weren't really industrialized; they had no factories in the modern sense of the word. The development of true industry is what most allowed Europeans to dominate other advanced civs like the Chinese and Indians over the last few centuries.

True. Modern factoring that we would recognized only appeared about two hundred years ago. There was massive production but usually, but not only, in small family businesses. All countries had large amounts of manufacturing after all The massive armies, and navies of the Napoleonic Wars, of Mogul, and Chinese Empires, had to be equipped, and supplied, after all. The first appearance of modern style factories took time even in Great Britain. Even before those factories, Britain and Venice made their warships in assembly lines or at least in standard plans with standard parts.

Think of the earlier merchantile system where all manufacturing was supposed to be done only in the home country with the colonies supplying the raw materials. Case in point, the American colonies were, if possible, prevented from even making horse shoe nails. So the Western powers actively prevented, or at least retarded, the growth of manufacturing, and in some places its destruction.

[katarn]

For starters, the India's textile industry which was very good. However, the British wanted the more profitable textile, and later clothing, industries done in Britain while forcing the less profitable cotton growing.

India certainly produced a lot of textiles, but they weren't really industrialized; they had no factories in the modern sense of the word. The development of true industry is what most allowed Europeans to dominate other advanced civs like the Chinese and Indians over the last few centuries.

True. Modern factoring that we would recognized only appeared about two hundred years ago. There was massive production but usually, but not only, in small family businesses. All countries had large amounts of manufacturing after all The massive armies, and navies of the Napoleonic Wars, of Mogul, and Chinese Empires, had to be equipped, and supplied, after all. The first appearance of modern style factories took time even in Great Britain. Even before those factories, Britain and Venice made their warships in assembly lines or at least in standard plans with standard parts.

Think of the earlier merchantile system where all manufacturing was supposed to be done only in the home country with the colonies supplying the raw materials. Case in point, the American colonies were, if possible, prevented from even making horse shoe nails. So the Western powers actively prevented, or at least retarded, the growth of manufacturing, and in some places its destruction.

True. The growth of the 'developing' world is really more a case of a few powers advancing much more than the rest of the world did in the same time.

[SuburbanFarmer]

India certainly produced a lot of textiles, but they weren't really industrialized; they had no factories in the modern sense of the word. The development of true industry is what most allowed Europeans to dominate other advanced civs like the Chinese and Indians over the last few centuries.

True. Modern factoring that we would recognized only appeared about two hundred years ago. There was massive production but usually, but not only, in small family businesses. All countries had large amounts of manufacturing after all The massive armies, and navies of the Napoleonic Wars, of Mogul, and Chinese Empires, had to be equipped, and supplied, after all. The first appearance of modern style factories took time even in Great Britain. Even before those factories, Britain and Venice made their warships in assembly lines or at least in standard plans with standard parts.

Think of the earlier merchantile system where all manufacturing was supposed to be done only in the home country with the colonies supplying the raw materials. Case in point, the American colonies were, if possible, prevented from even making horse shoe nails. So the Western powers actively prevented, or at least retarded, the growth of manufacturing, and in some places its destruction.

True. The growth of the 'developing' world is really more a case of a few powers advancing much more than the rest of the world did in the same time.

Right. Now ask yourself why those select countries grew so very much faster than the others.

[jbird4049]

True. Modern factoring that we would recognized only appeared about two hundred years ago. There was massive production but usually, but not only, in small family businesses. All countries had large amounts of manufacturing after all The massive armies, and navies of the Napoleonic Wars, of Mogul, and Chinese Empires, had to be equipped, and supplied, after all. The first appearance of modern style factories took time even in Great Britain. Even before those factories, Britain and Venice made their warships in assembly lines or at least in standard plans with standard parts.

Think of the earlier merchantile system where all manufacturing was supposed to be done only in the home country with the colonies supplying the raw materials. Case in point, the American colonies were, if possible, prevented from even making horse shoe nails. So the Western powers actively prevented, or at least retarded, the growth of manufacturing, and in some places its destruction.

True. The growth of the 'developing' world is really more a case of a few powers advancing much more than the rest of the world did in the same time.

Right. Now ask yourself why those select countries grew so very much faster than the others.

India and China one to mind. I'm not sure if you are suggesting. The countries that comes to mind are Japan, India, and China, which have all used the tactic of de facto reverse merchantilism aften with the active assistance of the governments of countries that colonized them. Interesting.

[Hwen Hoshino]

Once again, I'm not disputing that life was nasty, brutish, and short across the globe, prior to the 20th. Indeed, for about half of humanity, it is still that way. That's the difference that I'm pointing out. We live in engineered, climate-controlled bliss, whilst half of our species still struggles to find food and medicine.

Such a disparity was impossible prior to the 20th. As they say, no king could buy a cellphone. Well now every peasant has one, but that does not mean that they're living well, or that the world is more fair due to the domination of Western civ.

We've left half of us far, far behind, and it's not right. That's all. So let's stop pretending that our newest form of society is the gleaming light upon humanity, or even that it's inherently superior to all others, because we are not done evolving. At least, I certainly hope not.



We should keep looking for alternatives, and fighting to change the world, because without that change, we will most surely end in ruin. This is not the best that we can do.

An US that is not an Empire is the peak of human civilization. The world is more fair if it embraces western civ and is not dominated by it.