Best American General of All Time?

[heydaralon]

I don't think Nixon will be in the movie much tbh. Apparently this movie will be loooong. Scorsese said it has the most scenes out of any film he ever made, and that man is the master of making long films. It will mainly be about Hoffa and his henchman Frank Sheeran. The book actually discusses the Hoffa assassination (Sheeran claims he was there for it). To be honest, I'm not sure how truthful the guy is being. A lot of these criminals get busted, get life, and figure fuck it, I'm stuck here forever, might as well talk myself up and get some publicity and attention. Richard Kuklinski def killed some people, but in those iceman interviews he makes some extraordinary claims which cannot be verified. Hell, he said he knew where Hoffa was buried. I think he was bored and kind of led the documentary crew down the garden path...

[heydaralon]

Like, Ruby was not an idealist, Ruby was not an activist, Ruby was not naive.

Why is he shooting Oswald for Kennedy and risking going to the chair for that? It makes no sense.

Ruby being mob connected, that makes more sense.

He owned some mob protected nightclubs in dallas right?


Also, are you excited about that Scorsese Irishman movie coming out? I actually listened to the Frank Sheeran audiobook the movie is based on. The book was surprisingly mediocre tbh. I think with the cast and director they can pull it off though. In the book, Sheeran talks about making huge cash donations to Nixon and doing it via John Mitchell. He said that administration was greedy as fuck lol. Nixon also used this jewish lawyer as an intermediary to get a bunch of money from Mickey Cohen when he ran for president years ago, so he wasn't averse to using dirty cash to finance his campaign.

I didn't know anything about it, but I'm a Tricky Dick fan, so anything Dick Nixon related I will certainly watch, so long as the actor playing Nixon does a good job.

I ended up buying that Conrad Black book Nixon you recommended, though I have not read it yet. Do you know of any good books on Prohibition as a whole?

[Smitty-48]

The other thing which doesn't line up about Oswald, is that he is supposedly this politically motivated ideological assassin, and yet when he gets his big chance, he declines to take credit and makes no political statements, instead claims he is a patsy. That's not the MO of a political assassination.

[heydaralon]

The other thing which doesn't line up about Oswald, is that he is supposedly this politically motivated ideological assassin, and yet when he gets his big chance, he declines to take credit and makes no political statements, instead claims he is a patsy. That's not the MO of a political assassination.

I am not a huge fan of the JFK movie, but I may need to rewatch it after this thread. You are making your case pretty well. I have seen some old Oswald clips, and Gary Oldman nailed it. Stone kind of made the CIA/right wing interests case but I am skeptical about that part. The mob seems somewhat plausible to me after thinking about what you said..

[Smitty-48]

The other thing which doesn't line up about Oswald, is that he is supposedly this politically motivated ideological assassin, and yet when he gets his big chance, he declines to take credit and makes no political statements, instead claims he is a patsy. That's not the MO of a political assassination.

I am not a huge fan of the JFK movie, but I may need to rewatch it after this thread. You are making your case pretty well. I have seen some old Oswald clips, and Gary Oldman nailed it. Stone kind of made the CIA/right wing interests case but I am skeptical about that part. The mob seems somewhat plausible to me after thinking about what you said..

I do not assume Oswald is lying. Patsy is actually what he looks like more than anything.

If he is a lone wolf with a grudge, why is he not taking credit for his great revenge upon the hated JFK?

Why would he even hate JFK? Oswalds worldview was not actually that simplistic, how does the POTUS become his arch nemesis and why? And if so, again, why doesn't he claim his kill?

Patsy is not a glorious end, patsy is a chump, if this was political, why would he say that?

[heydaralon]

The other thing which doesn't line up about Oswald, is that he is supposedly this politically motivated ideological assassin, and yet when he gets his big chance, he declines to take credit and makes no political statements, instead claims he is a patsy. That's not the MO of a political assassination.

I am not a huge fan of the JFK movie, but I may need to rewatch it after this thread. You are making your case pretty well. I have seen some old Oswald clips, and Gary Oldman nailed it. Stone kind of made the CIA/right wing interests case but I am skeptical about that part. The mob seems somewhat plausible to me after thinking about what you said..

I do not assume Oswald is lying. Patsy is actually what he looks like more than anything.

If he is a lone wolf with a grudge, why is he not taking credit for his great revenge upon the hated JFK?

Why would he even hate JFK? Oswalds worldview was not actually that simplistic, how does the POTUS become his arch nemesis and why? And if so, again, why doesn't he claim his kill?

Patsy is not a glorious end, patsy is a chump, if this was political, why would he say that?

Do you think he actually pulled the trigger?

[Smitty-48]

I am not a huge fan of the JFK movie, but I may need to rewatch it after this thread. You are making your case pretty well. I have seen some old Oswald clips, and Gary Oldman nailed it. Stone kind of made the CIA/right wing interests case but I am skeptical about that part. The mob seems somewhat plausible to me after thinking about what you said..

I do not assume Oswald is lying. Patsy is actually what he looks like more than anything.

If he is a lone wolf with a grudge, why is he not taking credit for his great revenge upon the hated JFK?

Why would he even hate JFK? Oswalds worldview was not actually that simplistic, how does the POTUS become his arch nemesis and why? And if so, again, why doesn't he claim his kill?

Patsy is not a glorious end, patsy is a chump, if this was political, why would he say that?

Do you think he actually pulled the trigger?

I think its plausible that he didn't. Do you have visual confirmation it was him? I don't.

[heydaralon]

I'm not an expert on any of this, nor was I alive in '63, but I thought witnesses saw him leaving the Depository, found the rifle there etc. Why was he there? Didn't work there. Why did he go to Russia? I don't have answers, but an American ex-marine defects to Russia during the Cold War seems pretty ideological to me. He wanted to go to Moscow University which is commie mecca from what I read. I think he was a true believer. Organized crime does business with terrorists and activists when it suits them, so I can buy him being used as a pawn by the wops, but despite his curious lack of soapboxing, I think he fits the bill of an assassin with a motive. As an aside, maybe his lack of vociferousness after being apprehended was self preservation. Maybe he wanted JFK dead, but maybe he realized he didn't have the stomach for getting the chair after pulling the trigger. A lot of mass shooters today will slaughter innocent people, but they don't always leave manifestos. They usually commit suicide, because they don't want to face the music either. Killing many people is one thing, but actually being punished for it and enduring the agonizing trial and life sentence or death penalty is another. In that context, it kind of makes sense why he'd deny it. Idk

[Smitty-48]

I don't get down in the weeds, I pan back.

If it's an attention seeking crazy, they say "I just shot John Lennon", they don't say "I'm a patsy"

If it's a political assassin they say "viva Cuba libre" or whatever, they don't say "I'm a patsy".

Assassins are triumphalists. They want power and notoriety.

Patsy is a chump, patsy is ignominious, pasty is not a triumph.

The only reason to call yourself a patsy in that situation, is because you is one.

[heydaralon]

I don't get down in the weeds, I pan back.

If it's an attention seeking crazy, they say "I just shot John Lennon", they don't say "I'm a patsy"

If it's a political assassin they say "viva Cuba libre" or whatever, they don't say "I'm a patsy".

Assassins are triumphalists. They want power and notoriety.

Patsy is a chump, patsy is ignominious, pasty is not a triumph.

The only reason to call yourself a patsy in that situation, is because you is one.

I realize these questions won't be answered ever most likely, but if you do think that crazy guido Giancana got Oswald to kill Kennedy or at least take the fall for it, how would he have gone about setting it up? Do you suppose he blackmailed Oswald and told him to be at a certain place at a certain time without giving any info? Do you think he got some intermediary to convince Oswald to pull the trigger by appealing to his Marxist tendencies? Do you think he threatened Oswald's family? Why was Oswald chosen as the Patsy? All speculation, but I am curious to what your thoughts are on this.