Russian trolls

[DrYouth]

Fukuyama observes that China formed the earliest full blown technocratic State and had a head start in this regard... able to unify many competing tribes under this system which allowed remarkable cooperation among a wide land mass and disparate groups....
But he also argues that they never developed Rule of Law that holds this state accountable... and that continues to this day.

[Speaker to Animals]

Arguably the first nation state. I can grant them that. But it's not like there has been this one continuous state since the second century before Christ either.

It's just myth-building to make themselves feel more important than they really are. China is a really interesting civilization. It doesn't need to be older and wiser than the West to be interesting.

China was forming when Greeks calculated the circumference of the Earth. Something to ponder..

[Speaker to Animals]

Western civ and China are pretty similar in age.

Though Qin unifies China in the 200s, Lao tzu, Confucius, Mencius, sun tzu et al distinctly Chinese culture in the 500s...

Western civ is similarly around the time of Solon in 500s Greece...

Egypt and Sumer were in the 9000s BC.

[nmoore63]

So you are sticking with the line that the Qin created Chinese civilization when they politically unified it in the 200s and thereby declaring Confucius not Chinese?

[nmoore63]

Western civ and China are pretty similar in age.

Though Qin unifies China in the 200s, Lao tzu, Confucius, Mencius, sun tzu et al distinctly Chinese culture in the 500s...

Western civ is similarly around the time of Solon in 500s Greece...

Egypt and Sumer were in the 9000s BC.

The pharaohs are not remotely "western civ"

[Speaker to Animals]

Western civ and China are pretty similar in age.

Though Qin unifies China in the 200s, Lao tzu, Confucius, Mencius, sun tzu et al distinctly Chinese culture in the 500s...

Western civ is similarly around the time of Solon in 500s Greece...

Egypt and Sumer were in the 9000s BC.

The pharaohs are not remotely "western civ"

The origin of western civilization in in Sumer and Egypt. We are an offshoot of them.

[nmoore63]

The origin of western civilization in in Sumer and Egypt. We are an offshoot of them.

We are a rejection of the pharaohs not their inheritors.

And I've read the Epic of Gilgamesh, you would have to squint very, very hard to see any shadows of western civ in there.

[Speaker to Animals]

Civilization only emerged on its own in maybe five places that I can think of offhand (Sumer, Egypt, Yellow River, Mesoamerica, and Andes).

From those first civilizations, a lot of others branched off. Western civilization isn't an original. It branched off from Sumeria and Egypt. Still much older than China.

Mycenaean contact and trade with Sumeria and Egypt is what induced them to adopt customs and ideas, like a written language, etc. That's how our civilization began.

Another example is the Mexica who came down from the north into the Mexico valley and formed their own civilization based around the older civilizations of the area. They created their own written language, origin myths, and so forth, and adapted their previous culture to the new surroundings. It doesn't make sense to claim Aztec civilization simply emerged on it's own (it definitely did not). It was an offshoot of the original Mesoamerican civilization (I guess Olmecs as best anybody can tell).

[nmoore63]

Civilization only emerged on its own in maybe five places that I can think of offhand (Sumer, Egypt, Yellow River, Mesoamerica, and Andes).

From those first civilizations, a lot of others branched off. Western civilization isn't an original. It branched off from Sumeria and Egypt. Still much older than China.

Mycenaean contact and trade with Sumeria and Egypt is what induced them to adopt customs and ideas, like a written language, etc. That's how our civilization began.

Another example is the Mexica who came down from the north into the Mexico valley and formed their own civilization based around the older civilizations of the area. They created their own written language, origin myths, and so forth, and adapted their previous culture to the new surroundings. It doesn't make sense to claim Aztec civilization simply emerged on it's own (it definitely did not). It was an offshoot of the original Mesoamerican civilization (I guess Olmecs as best anybody can tell).

Whether or not civilization existed in the fertile crescent before the yellow river is not the same thing as claiming western civ is older than Chinese civ.

(which was your point when trying to claim that Chinese civ is only as old as 200 bc)

[DrYouth]

Fukuyama's thesis is about the emergence of political order and the rise from tribalism to organizations that transcended tribe...

The three pillars of modern political order according to Fukuyama are:

The State

Rule of Law

Accountable Government

In the west Fukuyama argues we arrived at a balance of these three components...

The Pharoahs for example had a state, but this was never accountable to Rule of Law... they were gods.
Roman Emperors reverted to this after the fall of the Republic.
According to Fukuyama effective Rule of Law emerged in the West before the development of the State as we know it now... which emerged from the burocracy created from the Church...
This Rule of Law was most effective in the UK (and also Denmark) and served as an effective check on the power of the State.