The Religion Discussion Thread

[SuburbanFarmer]

I find it fascinating how the people who say they don't have faith are the same people who are the most firm in their beliefs.

Life is much, much easier with a Daddy-figure to follow.

That's assuming that following whatever the "Daddy-figure tells you to do" is easy. What if Daddy-figure demands sacrifice?

Ask yourself how those systems were maintained over the centuries. Were the ancients really so different from us? Do you assume yourself to be superior in mental capacity or form?

Uncertainty is completely terrifying to humans. We will do anything to feel secure. Even burn our kids alive.

[Kazmyr]

Life is much, much easier with a Daddy-figure to follow.

That's assuming that following whatever the "Daddy-figure tells you to do" is easy. What if Daddy-figure demands sacrifice?

Ask yourself how those systems were maintained over the centuries. Were the ancients really so different from us? Do you assume yourself to be superior in mental capacity or form?

Uncertainty is completely terrifying to humans. We will do anything to feel secure. Even burn our kids alive.

I think modern human beings, have many more tools available to us, as it relates to understanding the unknown. This, however, does not dismiss the validity of the previous systems (or render them obsolete) in regards to their utility in understanding. Would you laugh at the person who turns to God to get their life back together successfully after tragedy?

Sacrifice is not only burning kids alive. It's much, much broader than that; however, your bias against religion put your mind straight to kids being burned alive - that's a narrow, narrow slice of what sacrifice entails. Sacrifice involves you giving up something; something that you value in order to receive something that you need, which can be the knowledge to face uncertainty. It doesn't mean security. Security is implying a sort of static state - that "I know the uncertainty is out there and I'm insulating myself from it."

[Hastur]

Life demands constant sacrifice. What is a sacrifice but the act of giving up something within our power in order to better our chances in the future?
Sure, a lot of sacrificial rituals of the past might not make sense to us today but the principle remains and we keep making sacrifices every day.
What is an abortion if not a human sacrifice in order to make one's future better? There is no scientific proof that every abortion leads to improvement but still we accept it.
There's faith right there, in your face, dear Atheists.

[Speaker to Animals]

That's exactly what it is. Abortion is satanic as fuck.

[SuburbanFarmer]

That's assuming that following whatever the "Daddy-figure tells you to do" is easy. What if Daddy-figure demands sacrifice?

Ask yourself how those systems were maintained over the centuries. Were the ancients really so different from us? Do you assume yourself to be superior in mental capacity or form?

Uncertainty is completely terrifying to humans. We will do anything to feel secure. Even burn our kids alive.

I think modern human beings, have many more tools available to us, as it relates to understanding the unknown. This, however, does not dismiss the validity of the previous systems (or render them obsolete) in regards to their utility in understanding. Would you laugh at the person who turns to God to get their life back together successfully after tragedy?

Sacrifice is not only burning kids alive. It's much, much broader than that; however, your bias against religion put your mind straight to kids being burned alive - that's a narrow, narrow slice of what sacrifice entails. Sacrifice involves you giving up something; something that you value in order to receive something that you need, which can be the knowledge to face uncertainty. It doesn't mean security. Security is implying a sort of static state - that "I know the uncertainty is out there and I'm insulating myself from it."

Burning kids is just the most extreme example that came to mind. I could have gone Spanish Inquisition, but it somehow doesn't have the same impact, and gets derailed off into Jew/Muslim-land.

I wouldn't laugh at anyone for their personal beliefs - if that's what they need, in order to summon the discipline to make it through life, then more power to them. Maintaining a productive, healthy life requires discipline, and that's much easier to accomplish with the fear of hellfire behind it. Some of us can find that power within themselves, and some need a Daddy to get there. I'm not knocking that, it's hard.

What I can't abide is the rank hypocrisy of the 'Evangelical' mindset, or the constant railing against other people for their differing belief systems. Lobbying and campaigning for religious laws to be set over 300 million other citizens, for your personal feelz is complete insanity, and even contradicts the texts that they're claiming to follow.

**Edited "born-again" to "Evangelical". I was being too vague.

[de officiis]

If the future is determined, then you, me, and 7 billion others have no control over their own minds.

That's doesn't even make sense. Supposing it did, and just by knowing what you would do that negates free will (pro tip: how the fuck does that work you fuzz brain????) Then how do you know God isn't waiting for someone to break his machine just to see if it could happen?

You want to waste your potential to help him with a science experiment? I've got other things to do.

As for 'how it works', look up Determinism, for a start. Or, a thought experiment: If God can see the future, then he already knew that a creation of his would grab Mommy's gun, and murder a bunch of elementary schoolers. Therefore, the murderer never had a choice - his action was pre-determined, he was simply going through the motions, along with the rest of us. Does he deserve punishment then?

At the very least, you have to concede that there is absolutely no active hand in our daily lives. Therefore, why bother asking for healing, or safety? There are no atheists in a foxhole. Yet, any foxhole can catch an artillery shell, regardless of prayer intensity.

I am intrigued by this passage from Boethius's The Consolation of Philosophy:

What? you will say, can I by my own action change divine knowledge, so that if I choose now one thing, now another, Providence too will seem to change its knowledge? No; divine insight precedes all future things, turning them back and recalling them to the present time of its own peculiar knowledge. It does not change, as you may think, between this and that alternation of foreknowledge. It is constant in preceding and embracing by one glance all your changes. And God does not receive this ever-present grasp of all things and vision of the present at the occurrence of future events, but from His own peculiar directness. Whence also is that difficulty solved which you laid down a little while ago, that it was not worthy to say that our future events were the cause of God's knowledge. For this power of knowledge, ever in the present and embracing all things in its perception, does itself constrain all things, and owes naught to following events from which it has received naught.

[heydaralon]

Ask yourself how those systems were maintained over the centuries. Were the ancients really so different from us? Do you assume yourself to be superior in mental capacity or form?

Uncertainty is completely terrifying to humans. We will do anything to feel secure. Even burn our kids alive.

I think modern human beings, have many more tools available to us, as it relates to understanding the unknown. This, however, does not dismiss the validity of the previous systems (or render them obsolete) in regards to their utility in understanding. Would you laugh at the person who turns to God to get their life back together successfully after tragedy?

Sacrifice is not only burning kids alive. It's much, much broader than that; however, your bias against religion put your mind straight to kids being burned alive - that's a narrow, narrow slice of what sacrifice entails. Sacrifice involves you giving up something; something that you value in order to receive something that you need, which can be the knowledge to face uncertainty. It doesn't mean security. Security is implying a sort of static state - that "I know the uncertainty is out there and I'm insulating myself from it."

Burning kids is just the most extreme example that came to mind. I could have gone Spanish Inquisition, but it somehow doesn't have the same impact, and gets derailed off into Jew/Muslim-land.

I wouldn't laugh at anyone for their personal beliefs - if that's what they need, in order to summon the discipline to make it through life, then more power to them. Maintaining a productive, healthy life requires discipline, and that's much easier to accomplish with the fear of hellfire behind it. Some of us can find that power within themselves, and some need a Daddy to get there. I'm not knocking that, it's hard.

What I can't abide is the rank hypocrisy of the 'Evangelical' mindset, or the constant railing against other people for their differing belief systems. Lobbying and campaigning for religious laws to be set over 300 million other citizens, for your personal feelz is complete insanity, and even contradicts the texts that they're claiming to follow.

**Edited "born-again" to "Evangelical". I was being too vague.

Ive said it before, but evangelicals are easy to mock and its tempting to write off christianity as a whole. There are many affects of Christianity that have directly led to the modern liberal society that we have today. Many good things. You have to take the good with the bad. There are many things about christianity in America that unsettle me, but I have also seen it do a lot of good. My mom is a devout christian, and she spends at least half her week volunteering and helping homeless people find jobs, providing them with food and toiletries, washing their clothes, taking them to the dmv and social security office to get their papers in order etc. she is well into her sixties and retired. Many people that age either shop or play golf, but she chooses to spend her time helping those less fortunate. It is unlikely she would do this if it were not for her beliefs. I am far too selfish to spend my time doing that. Anyway, Christianity has done a lot of bad things in the past and its easy to see, but if you are looking for the good it is also easy to see. I have no idea if anythjng in the Bible is true or if god exists, but I dont think that many young people have given the christian faith a fair shake when evaluating it. Anyway, just food for thought.

[SuburbanFarmer]

I think modern human beings, have many more tools available to us, as it relates to understanding the unknown. This, however, does not dismiss the validity of the previous systems (or render them obsolete) in regards to their utility in understanding. Would you laugh at the person who turns to God to get their life back together successfully after tragedy?

Sacrifice is not only burning kids alive. It's much, much broader than that; however, your bias against religion put your mind straight to kids being burned alive - that's a narrow, narrow slice of what sacrifice entails. Sacrifice involves you giving up something; something that you value in order to receive something that you need, which can be the knowledge to face uncertainty. It doesn't mean security. Security is implying a sort of static state - that "I know the uncertainty is out there and I'm insulating myself from it."

Burning kids is just the most extreme example that came to mind. I could have gone Spanish Inquisition, but it somehow doesn't have the same impact, and gets derailed off into Jew/Muslim-land.

I wouldn't laugh at anyone for their personal beliefs - if that's what they need, in order to summon the discipline to make it through life, then more power to them. Maintaining a productive, healthy life requires discipline, and that's much easier to accomplish with the fear of hellfire behind it. Some of us can find that power within themselves, and some need a Daddy to get there. I'm not knocking that, it's hard.

What I can't abide is the rank hypocrisy of the 'Evangelical' mindset, or the constant railing against other people for their differing belief systems. Lobbying and campaigning for religious laws to be set over 300 million other citizens, for your personal feelz is complete insanity, and even contradicts the texts that they're claiming to follow.

**Edited "born-again" to "Evangelical". I was being too vague.

Ive said it before, but evangelicals are easy to mock and its tempting to write off christianity as a whole. There are many affects of Christianity that have directly led to the modern liberal society that we have today. Many good things. You have to take the good with the bad. There are many things about christianity in America that unsettle me, but I have also seen it do a lot of good. My mom is a devout christian, and she spends at least half her week volunteering and helping homeless people find jobs, providing them with food and toiletries, washing their clothes, taking them to the dmv and social security office to get their papers in order etc. she is well into her sixties and retired. Many people that age either shop or play golf, but she chooses to spend her time helping those less fortunate. It is unlikely she would do this if it were not for her beliefs. I am far too selfish to spend my time doing that. Anyway, Christianity has done a lot of bad things in the past and its easy to see, but if you are looking for the good it is also easy to see. I have no idea if anythjng in the Bible is true or if god exists, but I dont think that many young people have given the christian faith a fair shake when evaluating it. Anyway, just food for thought.

Based on that, I would call her a true Christian. There are a few of them around. The rest just like to thump their books and feel superior.

I think you sell her character short, though. I have little doubt that she would be just as motivated to help others, regardless of religious background. She sounds like a good human.

[SuburbanFarmer]

That's doesn't even make sense. Supposing it did, and just by knowing what you would do that negates free will (pro tip: how the fuck does that work you fuzz brain????) Then how do you know God isn't waiting for someone to break his machine just to see if it could happen?

You want to waste your potential to help him with a science experiment? I've got other things to do.

As for 'how it works', look up Determinism, for a start. Or, a thought experiment: If God can see the future, then he already knew that a creation of his would grab Mommy's gun, and murder a bunch of elementary schoolers. Therefore, the murderer never had a choice - his action was pre-determined, he was simply going through the motions, along with the rest of us. Does he deserve punishment then?

At the very least, you have to concede that there is absolutely no active hand in our daily lives. Therefore, why bother asking for healing, or safety? There are no atheists in a foxhole. Yet, any foxhole can catch an artillery shell, regardless of prayer intensity.

I am intrigued by this passage from Boethius's The Consolation of Philosophy:

What? you will say, can I by my own action change divine knowledge, so that if I choose now one thing, now another, Providence too will seem to change its knowledge? No; divine insight precedes all future things, turning them back and recalling them to the present time of its own peculiar knowledge. It does not change, as you may think, between this and that alternation of foreknowledge. It is constant in preceding and embracing by one glance all your changes. And God does not receive this ever-present grasp of all things and vision of the present at the occurrence of future events, but from His own peculiar directness. Whence also is that difficulty solved which you laid down a little while ago, that it was not worthy to say that our future events were the cause of God's knowledge. For this power of knowledge, ever in the present and embracing all things in its perception, does itself constrain all things, and owes naught to following events from which it has received naught.

Same argument as Okee and StA, really. Hand-wave covers all logical faults, with the assumption of Supreme Knowledge.

Like I said, there's no way to know anything outside of our physical reality, so it's a good idea to stick with that. The fact that a few delirious desert tribesmen came up with visions and rules for humanity should not dissuade logical thought.

[Kazmyr]

Same argument as Okee and StA, really. Hand-wave covers all logical faults, with the assumption of Supreme Knowledge.

Like I said, there's no way to know anything outside of our physical reality, so it's a good idea to stick with that. The fact that a few delirious desert tribesmen came up with visions and rules for humanity should not dissuade logical thought.