Meanwhile in Iraq & Syria

[heydaralon]

This may be the stupidiest American scapegoating bubble fantasy of them all, that somehow it is the NATO countries who are forcing America to be the Imperial Hegemon in a forward strike position against the Russian recalcitrants in Europe, I mean, I know you're Americans, but even you can't be that fuckin' naive.

Nobody forces America to do shit, America does the forcing, the rest of us have to dance to your tune.

Your lack of isolationism problem, does not emanate from Brussels, I mean, get real, you fuckwits.

I never said they are forcing us to do shit. You are right, we have some bozos like McCain who cry bloody murder when anyone even talks about reducing NATO, but come on. You are acting like Europe has not benefited immensely from NATO. They don't spend much on their defense budgets, and even if NATO is a figleaf, maybe its dissolution would force them to re-evaluate their policy and decide if they want to have more security or continue to expand their domestic government programs.

[heydaralon]

For the United States? The primary strategic interest is maintaining control of the no man's land between Russia's nuclear arsenal and America's, just because you pullled out of and/or disolved NATO, that wouldn't spare the United States from being Russia's primary target in the event of a theatre war, the United States would get dragged in no matter what, so there's nothing gained for America by surrendering control of the situation to the Europeans, you couldn't escape the vortex in the event of, the real purpose of NATO is to prevent the vortex from ever coming about in the first place.

The United States is the main target in NATO, it's not NATO putting the United States in the gunsights, the Russians don't actually have a beef with Poland, Poland is not the exitential threat to Russia, the Russians are not targeting the United States because the United States is in Europe, the Russians are targeting Europe for being the proxy of the United States.

Historically, I believe you are wrong, because much of Poland has been a part of Russia for centuries until Versailles, and Hitler and Stalin ruthlessly divided Poland between themselves in 1939, not to mention the fact that Poland was a part of the USSR for half the 20th century. Poland had a brief flicker after World War 1, and again after the late 80's. It remains to be seen if that light will stay on.

ummmm no. Poland was a superpower until 1772, and the Sejm partition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland#Post-war_communism

It wasn't really 'ruled by Russia' until after WW2, in the Soviet era.

You do realize that Poland was basically partitioned by the Austro Hungarian Empire, Prussia, and Russia for several hundred years before WW1 right? They had not existed as a country for centuries. Then, they briefly existed for about 20 years before being swallowed up again.

[Okeefenokee]

MPGA

[TheReal_ND]

Poland is great. Just take a look at how many Muslim terror attacks they have to deal with.

None

[SuburbanFarmer]

Historically, I believe you are wrong, because much of Poland has been a part of Russia for centuries until Versailles, and Hitler and Stalin ruthlessly divided Poland between themselves in 1939, not to mention the fact that Poland was a part of the USSR for half the 20th century. Poland had a brief flicker after World War 1, and again after the late 80's. It remains to be seen if that light will stay on.

ummmm no. Poland was a superpower until 1772, and the Sejm partition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland#Post-war_communism

It wasn't really 'ruled by Russia' until after WW2, in the Soviet era.

You do realize that Poland was basically partitioned by the Austro Hungarian Empire, Prussia, and Russia for several hundred years before WW1 right? They had not existed as a country for centuries. Then, they briefly existed for about 20 years before being swallowed up again.

Yeah, that's what I'm referring to. I mean, I guess you could call it 'centuries', but there's almost always been a Poland, and it was never 'part of Russia'.

[heydaralon]

ummmm no. Poland was a superpower until 1772, and the Sejm partition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland#Post-war_communism

It wasn't really 'ruled by Russia' until after WW2, in the Soviet era.

You do realize that Poland was basically partitioned by the Austro Hungarian Empire, Prussia, and Russia for several hundred years before WW1 right? They had not existed as a country for centuries. Then, they briefly existed for about 20 years before being swallowed up again.

Yeah, that's what I'm referring to. I mean, I guess you could call it 'centuries', but there's almost always been a Poland, and it was never 'part of Russia'.

Yes it was dude. After Versailles, Poland got recreated. Much of today's Polish territory came from Russia, Germany, and the Austro Hungarians. This is not hard to check. They got defeated and they lost their territory. It happened all the time before the 20th century.

[TheReal_ND]

Probably a good reason for the fact they have a separate language and culture.

[Okeefenokee]

language and culture.

My brain read luggage.

[heydaralon]

language and culture.

My brain read luggage.

Well the Poles left a lot of that piled up at the train stations too. I think they got the teeth fillings later..

[Smitty-48]

I never said they are forcing us to do shit. You are right, we have some bozos like McCain who cry bloody murder when anyone even talks about reducing NATO, but come on. You are acting like Europe has not benefited immensely from NATO. They don't spend much on their defense budgets, and even if NATO is a figleaf, maybe its dissolution would force them to re-evaluate their policy and decide if they want to have more security or continue to expand their domestic government programs.

Why would they spend more on their defense budgets? The vast majority of defense spending is wasteful, meanwhile, security and combat power are not actually related to how much you spend, the Saudis spend more than anybody, number one defense spender per capita, and yet they couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

2% GDP spending is an arbitrary and in the end meaningless metric, and it wouldn't make anybody spend less on domestic programs, and most defense spending is a domestic program anyways, so get real.

The Europeans spend more on social programs and less on the military, because that is what the people demand, if Americans don't demand that for themselves, well too bad so sad, but that's not Europe's fault.