Common Sense 322 - Betting on Long Shots

[DrYouth]

when the great Khan took the Forbidden City, he didn't even live in the palace

they lived in their tents in the back , behind the palace

They didn't want to get soft...
They were worried about silk slipper syndrome.
I guess that mentality might work for a few generations...
Then those soft slippers start to seem awfully tempting...

[Smitty-48]

when the great Khan took the Forbidden City, he didn't even live in the palace

they lived in their tents in the back , behind the palace

They didn't want to get soft...
They were worried about silk slipper syndrome.
I guess that mentality might work for a few generations...
Then those soft slippers start to seem awfully tempting...

they were just the bandits who were astride the Silk Road

they could control the vast empty space in the middle

they never built an empire out of that tho

they just camped out and dined on the Chinese empire

in the end, their fears came true, when they got absorbed by Chinese culture

[C-Mag]

can you tell me what Dan's point was ?

what was his historical point as to the Mongols ?

I can accept your premise that the Mongols weren't great because they didn't build things, if building pyramids is our yard stick. And I can even shit on their conquest of China, because the more I look at China, the less impressive they are over time. China is just a geographically locked large population that loves to suffer tyrants, steal ideas, and brag about how smart they are.

The greatness of the Mongols is that they weren't supposed to be able to do what they did. Civilized folks are scared to death of barbarians but cover their fear with disrespect and loathing. The Mongols defeated probably the two biggest powers of the planet, the Chinese and Abbassid Caliphate, in a multi front war. I don't know if there has been an army before or since that has been able to do what they did. Civilized folks hate the idea that their mortal enemies, backwoods hillbillies can conquer them. That's the point, the shock, the fascination.

The Mongols weren't great at building things, but there are Mongols living in yurts today just like they always have. No one in Rome is living like Romans anymore.

[Smitty-48]

can you tell me what Dan's point was ?

what was his historical point as to the Mongols ?

I can accept your premise that the Mongols weren't great because they didn't build things, if building pyramids is our yard stick. And I can even shit on their conquest of China, because the more I look at China, the less impressive they are over time. China is just a geographically locked large population that loves to suffer tyrants, steal ideas, and brag about how smart they are.

The greatness of the Mongols is that they weren't supposed to be able to do what they did. Civilized folks are scared to death of barbarians but cover their fear with disrespect and loathing. The Mongols defeated probably the two biggest powers of the planet, the Chinese and Abbassid Caliphate, in a multi front war. I don't know if there has been an army before or since that has been able to do what they did. Civilized folks hate the idea that their mortal enemies, backwoods hillbillies can conquer them. That's the point, the shock, the fascination.

okay, but I'm still not finding an historical lesson in there which is relevant to my life, which is the point of history

basically you're saying the Mongols were bad asses, which is what Carlin always says, but that is not history

lots of military forces were bad asses, but they didn't empires out of that, to include the Mongols

[DrYouth]

in the end, their fears came true, when they got absorbed by Chinese culture

Didn't this sort of happen to the Romans at first... they basically became Greeks...

But somehow they took it to the next level in a way that the Mongols didn't.
They advanced the engineering, if not the philosophizing at least.

I'm not sure where the Christianity angle plays into it....
That seemed to come after the fact...
Although it was an important part of the legacy.

[C-Mag]

where is the great Mongol empire ?

it's an empire of grass, it's an empty steppe now as it was then

"Just grass".
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What Army has been able to advance in so many directions, in so many climates and terrains, against so different enemies in such a short time span. No One.

This is one of my arguments against Dan when he says the US didn't really fight WWII. WTF. No one fought WWII like the US, on every front, on every ocean, over every sky. How does dying make you a great participant. Were they Jin Chinese great participants because they had millions killed by the Mongols, Fuck No.

[Smitty-48]

in the end, their fears came true, when they got absorbed by Chinese culture

Didn't this sort of happen to the Romans at first... they basically became Greeks...

no, the Romans were the Greeks

the Romans were Greeks who fled the civil wars in Greece to to build a toll bridge over the Tiber and a port at Ostia

then they rose to become a Greek Empire, the dominant Greeks in the Mediterranean, by defeating Carthage by the sea

[StCapps]

in the end, their fears came true, when they got absorbed by Chinese culture

Didn't this sort of happen to the Romans at first... they basically became Greeks...

The Romans were Greeks to begin with

/shrugs

[C-Mag]

okay, but I'm still not finding an historical lesson in there which is relevant to my life, which is the point of history

basically you're saying the Mongols were bad asses, which is what Carlin always says, but that is not history

lots of military forces were bad asses, but they didn't empires out of that, to include the Mongols

IMO, you can't use the same yardstick for measuring greatness of Barbarian Empires that you can with Civilized Empires. Civilized folks write the books and build the universities so it's their yardstick we typically look at. But I firmly believe the Goths were great, the Commanches and the Mongols.

There is something to be said for cultures that won't bend, they won't change and become civilized. They will forgo their empire to maintain their way of life.

[Smitty-48]

okay, but I'm still not finding an historical lesson in there which is relevant to my life, which is the point of history

basically you're saying the Mongols were bad asses, which is what Carlin always says, but that is not history

lots of military forces were bad asses, but they didn't empires out of that, to include the Mongols

IMO, you can't use the same yardstick for measuring greatness of Barbarian Empires that you can with Civilized Empires. Civilized folks write the books and build the universities so it's their yardstick we typically look at. But I firmly believe the Goths were great, the Commanches and the Mongols.

There is something to be said for cultures that won't bend, they won't change and become civilized. They will forgo their empire to maintain their way of life.

I don't seek a quarrel with you

I am simply passing on my analysis

an empire is something specific, it was invented by the Greco-Romans, and it is by nature a sea power

the Golden Horde was a big bunch of Mongoloids on the Steppe, but it never amounted to an empire

in the same way the Taliban don't pose a threat to American power, all imperial power flows from Freedom of Navigation on the seas