Roots

[Hwen Hoshino]

You fellas are going to give yourselves high blood pressure problems.

Care to elaborate? Why?

[Ex-California]

did I miss a WE WUZ KANGZ AND SHEIT argument from GCF?

[SuburbanFarmer]

The Enlightenment project turned out far better.

Child labor and Boss Tweed. Keep swinging.

You can say that western civilization has been superior for, say, the last century or so, but that's only if you choose to ignore the creation of the third world, and the threat of nuclear annihilation.

Wicked stuff was done, Nukes also lead to unprecedented peace. I don't see despite all those things that it was not a better place to live. What makes you think given the oppurtunity other civilizations would not have pursued colonization?

Many of the problems in their current form, absolutely. But the very root of saying that the problems exist b/c Europeans paid no heed to tribal boundaires means there was tribal tension in the past. The Zulu didn't just fight Britain, they fought other Africans before that. The problems there are slightly changed b/c being in a country relights the conflicts as civil strife, but it really is more of a tribal/national struggle that is just continuing as it has for (usually) centuries or even longer in some cases.

But saying Europeans created the third world is pretty laughable. They didn't destroy too much in the economies of colonies that they didn't replace in some way (except in the Americas, but disease had the larger role).

I'm not proposing that there was some kind of utopian society before that, but they were not poverty-stricken wastelands. Those were little empires and tribes of proud people. Human dignity was the norm, not desolation. And you know very well that the landscape was mostly intact, not slashed and burned for cash crops.

Human dignity is not the norm in Empires. The in idependent country Ethiopia, the country that did not get colonized had slavery long after the US outlawed it. Where do you get this magical innocent black people stuff?

Quit strawmanning. As I said before, there was slavery in every civilization and area, at some point, except possibly the Inuit or something. I'm not talking about individual sovreignty, so much as societal. Previous to the 20th, any nation that fell to the level of "third-world" would simply have been absorbed/conquered by the nearest empire. If not, they'd simply migrate into one.

Look at the third world, as we know it from this century. When has there ever been a massive chunk of humanity (currently 40-50%) living in destitution and squalor? This is a new creation.

[apeman]

Look at the third world, as we know it from this century. When has there ever been a massive chunk of humanity (currently 40-50%) living in destitution and squalor? This is a new creation.

Candidate for the single stupidest comment in the history of these forums.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Look at the third world, as we know it from this century. When has there ever been a massive chunk of humanity (currently 40-50%) living in destitution and squalor? This is a new creation.

Candidate for the single stupidest comment in the history of these forums.

Prove me wrong then, instead of sniping. It's just an idea that I have, and put it up for debate. If it's so idiotic, then surely you could be bothered to post a few examples?

[apeman]

Look at the third world, as we know it from this century. When has there ever been a massive chunk of humanity (currently 40-50%) living in destitution and squalor? This is a new creation.

[/quote]

What evidence would serve you?

Proof that fewer percent of the population live in absolute poverty than ever before? Maybe astonishingly decreasing infant and child mortality rates? Maybe the average hours/worked per item of food bought? What would do it?

There have likely been times when 40-50% of people were fucking slaves, man.

[apeman]

I should add: I know you are angry at the world and think everything sucks.

But there are some good things we can recognize. Absolute poverty has been reduced. Less infant mortality. Fewer people are slaves.

Not everything about present society is bad, you know. You have a zero percent change of starving to death, being conscripted, having the Kings men rape your gf, having bandits burn your house, etc.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Look at the third world, as we know it from this century. When has there ever been a massive chunk of humanity (currently 40-50%) living in destitution and squalor? This is a new creation.

What evidence would serve you?

Proof that fewer percent of the population live in absolute poverty than ever before? Maybe astonishingly decreasing infant and child mortality rates? Maybe the average hours/worked per item of food bought? What would do it?

There have likely been times when 40-50% of people were fucking slaves, man.

Yes, medicine has gotten better across most of the world. Of course things are better than they were generally, prior to the 20th - for the first world.

However, how much better? If every civilization/area/segment of humanity had risen at the same rate in prosperity, then sub-saharan Africa would look like Cleveland right now. There would be no kids starving in the streets, or favelas, or terrorist shitholes in the ME. The prosperity has been incredibly lopsided toward the global 1%, just as it has more recently in our own society.

Why are ME goatherders, African tribesmen, and Amazonian villagers still living the same as they did 1,000 years ago? Did they all just "reject modern life"? Of course not. Why do Brazil, India, and Africa have gigantic, sprawling favelas, where murder and rape are the main pastime? Why are kids digging in trashcans to eat everywhere?

The kneejerk is going to be "there's just too many people now", but think deeper. The population in the first-world has risen just as quickly, but the wealth has skyrocketed. Compare 19th century America to 19th century India, Africa, and South America. Not a huge difference.

Now we're walking on the moon, and blowing up the global economy, while they've barely moved. They've got some medicine from whatever charity visits them, and some get a cellphone, but that's about all that's improved for a MASSIVE amount of humanity. They have starving kids, no coherent governments, no tribal structure, nothing but scratching to survive.

[SuburbanFarmer]

I should add: I know you are angry at the world and think everything sucks.

But there are some good things we can recognize. Absolute poverty has been reduced. Less infant mortality. Fewer people are slaves.

Not everything about present society is bad, you know. You have a zero percent change of starving to death, being conscripted, having the Kings men rape your gf, having bandits burn your house, etc.

Yes, it could be worse. That does not mean that we don't have some crippling problems to address. It's the blessing of the leisure class to lament upon their lessors, and I choose to. Compared to the rest of the world currently, I have no real problems. That gives me time, and perhaps the moral duty, to reflect upon and attempt to influence the larger-scale issues of the world.

[Fife]

Look at the third world, as we know it from this century. When has there ever been a massive chunk of humanity (currently 40-50%) living in destitution and squalor? This is a new creation.

Candidate for the single stupidest comment in the history of these forums.

MAKE SLAVERY GREAT AGAIN