The Psych Ward: The Shadow

[DrYouth]

You'll have more of a challenge looking for the "non"-dark side, if you can find it.

War against the Native Americans was no different than any other war of expansion...

This is nice land.... I don't see your name on it...
And if I do... that's easily changed.

The Native Americans regularly waged these wars on one another... like every other set of tribal people in human history... i.e. all people.

White people simply had horses, guns, organizational skills and a lot more white people on boats following behind them... oh ya and microbes.

At first the natives figured they could form alliances with the whites against their enemies like they would with any other strong tribe... and then this blew up on them.

So war.... has a dark side... for the loser... and a bright side... for the winner. As it ever was.
But if you're not a winner... there's a pretty good chance you're going to be on the losing end... so it behooves every nation to learn the arts of war.
For that we need a military....

...and for that we should look at what we expect of our military when it comes to engaging the enemy.

Do we have rules of engagement? What are they? Are they realistic? Are they followed?
What happens to real people when exposed to hellish situations?
What are real people capable of when it comes to evil... hellish situations or not... Especially when they think no one is watching.

We should explore these questions honestly.... which is why I appreciate Carlin/Bollelli/Cooper

[Speaker to Animals]

I think that narrative is pretty silly, honestly.

Natives had horses and guns too by then, better than the cavalry, really.

It came down more to population and organization. When the Natives all organized under a single war chief, they became deadly enemies of America.

[DrYouth]

It came down more to population and organization.

I included that in my post...

And I agree with you that the organization and population factor is much bigger in the long run, than the horses and guns... but even more so when you factor these things all together.... the capacity to organize an endless stream of armed and mounted people.... to feed these people and to build towns, cities and ultimately railroads.

Once the natives were mounted and armed their skills at war exceeded a numerical similar group of whites...

But the whites had many thousands more well fed armed and mounted folks to back those up... just a short march or train ride away... and more to back those up.

It was in the end a match of civilizations... and the western civilization could organize itself into the millions... whereas the tribal societies continued to be fractured into groups in the many thousands.

[Speaker to Animals]

Problem being, I utterly reject the disease angle long term. I also reject the fatality figures people postulate without direct evidence. There exists no evidence of large populations North of Mesoamerica in the time of English colonization. Further, by the time you get to the 19th century, disease is already factored in. It's not an issue any longer.

We also know that natives often were better nourished, healthier, and even better equipped than the cavalry.

They lost so often more likely due to disorganization and primitive culture.

[Fife]

Well, they lost at Sand Creek primarily through deception and false dealing from the US. That kind of fraud is usually a path to quick (but not necessarily long-standing) gains; assuming a sufficiently gullible trading partner.

That's a distinction (from the Vietnamese villagers) I expect Bolelli and Cooper to flesh out in the next episode.

[Smitty-48]

Two very different situations, psychologically speaking, Pinkville was an NLF stronghold dating back to the Viet Minh v. the French, the French had gotten their asses handed to them in there, the Americans were getting their asses handed to them in there, Pinkville was a case of disciplinary collapse in the wake of a morale collapse, aided and abetted by a chain of command which had declared the whole area a Free Fire Zone.

Against the Cheyenne, the Americans were winning, against the NLF in Pinkville, the Americans were losing, badly.

Interesting to note; the French committed an almost identical massacre (300+ non combatants killed) at Mỹ Trạch' in Quảng Bình Province in 1947, same situation, same kind of stronghold, Viet Minh at the time.

Also interesting to note, the most bloody massacre in the Vietnam war was committed by the North Vietnamese, when they were getting their asses handed to them, at Hue, during Tet; 6,000+ non combatants killed.

[Fife]

Two very different situations, psychologically speaking, Pinkville was an NLF stronghold dating back to the Viet Minh v. the French, the French had gotten their asses handed to them in there, the Americans were getting their asses handed to them in there, Pinkville was a case of disciplinary collapse in the wake of a morale collapse, aided and abetted by a chain of command which had declared the whole area a Free Fire Zone.

Against the Cheyenne, the Americans were winning, against the NLF in Pinkville, the Americans were losing, badly.

Interesting to note; the French committed an almost identical massacre (300+ non combatants killed) at Mỹ Trạch' in Quảng Bình Province in 1947, same situation, same kind of stronghold, Viet Minh at the time.

Also interesting to note, the most bloody massacre in the Vietnam war was committed by the North Vietnamese, when they were getting their asses handed to them, at Hue, during Tet; 6,000+ non combatants killed.

Yes Smits; I'm hoping those boys drill down on the compare/contrast next episode. How did you like the current (split) episode?

And massacres aren't anything special, eh?

[Smitty-48]

And massacres aren't anything special, eh?

The big mistake Calley made was shooting the babies, if he had kept it to adults, nobody would've given a fuck, but Baby Killer became a thing, in the wake of Pinkville.

[Smitty-48]

Tell you right now, at Pinkville, every single adult was Viet Cong, there was no way for any non Viet Cong villagers to survive in Pinkville, the Viet Cong would've killed them, and even the younger children were Viet Cong, but the straight up babies, that was a bridge too far, America spit the bit out on that one.

[Fife]

And massacres aren't anything special, eh?

The big mistake Calley made was shooting the babies, if he had kept it to adults, nobody would've given a fuck, but Baby Killer became a thing, in the wake of Pinkville.

I was taught in law skool about the legal term of art; untenable position. Most of us aren't dealt a complete shit hand; or are we?

"There is not a day that goes by that I do not feel remorse for what happened that day in My Lai. I feel remorse for the Vietnamese who were killed, for their families, for the American soldiers involved and their families. I am very sorry... If you are asking why I did not stand up to them when I was given the orders, I will have to say that I was a 2nd Lieutenant getting orders from my commander and I followed them—foolishly, I guess."