Secession On Trial

[Xenophon]

As the breakdown of civil debate and the increase in political partisanship ravages the American cultural landscape, Secession as a possible solution to wait ails us has come up increasingly often compared to years past. A section of an article from The American Conservative sums it up pretty well.

Link to full article: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ ... ion-legal/

Americans as a whole recognize that the debt is excessive, America is virtually bankrupt, and the central authority is out of control. Secession is a manifestation of the fear that the situation will not improve.

I want to start a conversation on whether or not Secession (in the case, the dissolution of the Union into smaller sovereign states) is a viable solution to the cultural and economic conflicts as they exist within the United States. Advocates for secession usually frame it as a way to re-assert the dominance of the traditional culture of the area in question. Advocates against secession usually frame it in terms of economic collapse, or as a way to keep marginalized people from being persecuted.

I've seen advocates for secession on the forum. I'm on the fence about it. I've read Neo-Confederate literature in the past, and dabbled in some of Nuke's Alt-Right podcasts, but their solutions come off as overly discriminatory or unrealistic. You guys are an intelligent bunch, for the most part. Maybe through an extended dialogue on the topic, we can find some answers?

Or argue for a few pages.

[Ex-California]

As much as there continue to be sectional divides in this country, and as much as pretty much none of us like how its going, the secession issue was settled between 1861-1865. States do not have the right to leave the Union.

Beyond that, there's no way we could have achieved the hegemony we did after the Civil War if we would have let the Union dissolve. If we let it dissolve today, just like if we would have let it dissolve back then, North America would turn into a divided zone of weak Balkanized states with a common language and basically common culture like South America.

All you have to do is go across the southern border to see how much in common we as Americans actually do have with each other. Sure, there are multiple distinct American cultures all over the country, and when I go to these other areas I definitely can feel a difference. However, when I go to Mexico the difference is huge, and this is coming from someone who has grown up in a place where Mexicans are basically the majority. Maybe its a language thing, or maybe its a economic thing, but I'm always going to have more in common with someone from Boston or New Orleans than I will with someone from Ensenada which is only 2 hours away.

[Martin Hash]

There's no doubt that people with low ambition and an introverted outlook would prefer living in a village, harvesting crops & praying regularly. Unfortunately, they are not geographically contiguous, and forcing that lifestyle on everybody living in your proximity isn't going to work out.

My recommendation: move. There's already a plan for a Libertarian paradise in the NE, Vermont I think: move there, take over the State government. Similarly, bible-thumpers, move to Mississippi or some such: take over. Texas already has the Aristocray & serfs thing happening: want a monarcharchy, move to Texas. When you have taken over, force anyone who does not believe like you out to their own region: homos to Cali, lesbos to Oregon, socialists to NYC.

[Xenophon]

As much as there continue to be sectional divides in this country, and as much as pretty much none of us like how its going, the secession issue was settled between 1861-1865. States do not have the right to leave the Union.

Beyond that, there's no way we could have achieved the hegemony we did after the Civil War if we would have let the Union dissolve. If we let it dissolve today, just like if we would have let it dissolve back then, North America would turn into a divided zone of weak Balkanized states with a common language and basically common culture like South America.

All you have to do is go across the southern border to see how much in common we as Americans actually do have with each other. Sure, there are multiple distinct American cultures all over the country, and when I go to these other areas I definitely can feel a difference. However, when I go to Mexico the difference is huge, and this is coming from someone who has grown up in a place where Mexicans are basically the majority. Maybe its a language thing, or maybe its a economic thing, but I'm always going to have more in common with someone from Boston or New Orleans than I will with someone from Ensenada which is only 2 hours away.

I disagree with the secession issue being settled. The right to have left the union is something that can only be determined after a successful secession bid. For a party to declare secession from another power, adherence to the previous order's laws aren't required. I'm pretty sure sedition is illegal in every governmental system.

I'm not talking about what would have happened if the South had won, and I'm not a devotee of American Hegemony. I would like to see our footprint scaled back (which is a pipe dream, I know).

You bring up a good point about shared American culture, but the same could be said about two dock workers, one on each side of the Atlantic. Those guys would have more in common than with a Mexican tradesman. The relationships between sections of the American populace appear to be in a state of flux. Someone in Silicon Valley would have less in common with me, an IT guy from Georgia, than would a cattle farmer from North Carolina.

There's no doubt that people with low ambition and an introverted outlook would prefer living in a village, harvesting crops & praying regularly. Unfortunately, they are not geographically contiguous, and forcing that lifestyle on everybody living in your proximity isn't going to work out.

My recommendation: move. There's already a plan for a Libertarian paradise in the NE, Vermont I think: move there, take over the State government. Similarly, bible-thumpers, move to Mississippi or some such: take over. Texas already has the Aristocray & serfs thing happening: want a monarcharchy, move to Texas. When you have taken over, force anyone who does not believe like you out to their own region: homos to Cali, lesbos to Oregon, socialists to NYC.

I agree. A realistic secessionist movement cannot disenfranchise a majority of the citizens who would be effected by such a move. I've talked before about a 4/5 referendum if there was over 50% turnout. If such a long shot succeeds, it'd be a clear sign that secession was something seriously desired by the public of whatever geographical area.

[DBTrek]

Does anyone doubt that California has the best shot at secession?

I mean, the political left is always pointing to California as their utopian state, the 6th biggest economy in the world (though they cant seem to keep their lights on), all that awesome gun control, quirky San Francisco, and the 9th Circuit Court of appeals, etc, etc. right?
And I don't think anyone on the conservative side of the political spectrum is going to throw a fit over California leaving.

So . . . I hereby declare California the most likely state to succeed at secession, given that both political factions would seem to be on board with it.


Your move, Cali.

[Speaker to Animals]

I hope they do it. I will make a road trip just to vote in their ID card-free referendum. I am sure half of Mexico will be there too.

[TheReal_ND]

HEY GUYS REPUBLICANS HAVE ABOUT ALL THE POWER THEY COULD GET AND WHAT ARE THEY DOING FUCK THIS GOD DAMN POS GOVERNMENT AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Martin Hash]

There's still 10s of millions of Conservatives in Cali. There is a movement to split it in half, East-West, though. That would halve the electoral votes of the socialist half.

[TheReal_ND]

I thought NorCal was the good one

[Martin Hash]

I thought NorCal was the good one

It is but lots of Conservatives live to the East. They don't want to be left in socialist land speaking Spanish.