The Mess

[TheReal_ND]

But the cities is where the liberals live, the cities must be kept intact, because that is who is going to capitulate to the Russians.

Fly Over Country might invoke Deo Vindice and relaliate in the name of the Lord, confident in the afterlife to come, can't nuke the cities, because that would leave the God Fearing Red Blooded Hot Headed Rednecks in charge, and they probably would fight on, usque ad finem.

The Russians would be seeking capitulation by nuclear blackmail against the urban population centres, and to get that, they would need to keep the bourgeois panty waists alive and in charge.

What's funny is that if the blue districts were wiped out in atomic hell fire the rest of the country would be earnestly shrugging their shoulders in an "idk" manner in regard to what we should do about it.

[Speaker to Animals]

What if Russia and flyover country are on the same side, against the democrats?

[TheReal_ND]

It's not at all impossible imho.

[Smitty-48]

Not going to nuke Fly Over Country neither, the whole point of counterforce is to leave the adversary essentially intact, minus his countervalue assets, in order to have a functioning state to which you can dictate terms, not to mention keep the fallout cloud to a minimum.

If you nuke Minot ND et al, even if surface burst on top of the silos, there's not going to be a whole lot of fallout, because you're going to be using 200kt range warheads with a narrow CEP, and where they are going to explode, there's not a whole lot to burn, an AFB is not going to be a nuclear pire which burns for months after, just a few craters in a tight little grouping, radioactive yes, but not over a wide area.

[Speaker to Animals]

Missile fields would have to go on the list no matter what, along with major air bases and and naval yards. But it does seem to me red district America now drifts closer to Russia, and away from Washington. If Hillary won, this would not have been too far out of the realm of possibility inside of eight years, in my opinion. I think we dodged a bullet big time.

[Smitty-48]

Seattle-Tacoma will get the worst of it, because they are downrange from Kitsap, the fallout from Kings Bay will blow out over the sea.

The bombers are not actually that important, they're not at failsafe anymore, they take hours to get to Russia, they couldn't retaliate without bringing the Russian countervalue strike down upon the cities, so they wouldn't be of any consequence to the initial counterforce. Once you get the Boomers and the ICBM's on the Great Plains, war's over, for all intents and purposes.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Riiiiight... So our entire network of weather satellites just fail to detect a high of around 60,000,000F on a tuesday afternoon, or the tsunami washing over Florida, while nuclear weapons are hurtling towards us, and we are completely unaware.

You are stretching beyond the limits of fevered neocon imagination, in order to keep your premise.

Weather sattalites do not detect SLBM launches, there is only one type of sattelite which can detect an SLBM launch, wide area infrared staring array from geosyncronous orbit, the DSP early warning constellation, that's the only eye in the sky which will detect nuclear depth charges going off, and SLBM launches right after, and there's only five of them, only 3 active, and only one watching the CONUS and asociated SSBN survivable second strike bastions, poke that eye out, and America is blind for a first strike window therein, which only shooting from the hip and firing blind on a hair trigger could overcome, which, the NCA is not really going to do.

You have switched the premise 3 times now. This charade is becoming comical.

First, there were SSBN bastions under the ice caps, which would be neutralized by russian attack subs and tactical underwater nukes.
Then, they're all stationed just off the US coast.
Now, we can't detect the tactical underwater nukes exploding off our coast, because we don't have an eye on SSBN launch sites?!?

You used to be better than this, Smitty. Maybe you just got a little too comfy with people being dazzled by your military knowledge, that you think we'll accept weak-ass debate tactics.

[Smitty-48]

I never said the American bastions are under the polar icecap, that's a Russian bastion, but their Boomers are specially designed to punch through the thicker ice with reinforced hulls and a precision thruster system, then launch their SLBM's from the surface, American SSBN's can't do that, they can only launch from the hover while dived, so the polar bastion is not open to the American TRIAD, that's a Russian trick which America has never bothered to master.

The Russian first strike however, would come by way of the polar bastion, although no doubt they'd creep down into Canadian waters so they could launch on the Great Plains point blank. They'd use the polar ice to shake their American tails, then they'd sneak south through Canada, where there is nothing which would be able to interdict them. They could literally pop up through the ice flows on Hudsons Bay, within spitting distance of the Minuteman III's.

American SSBN's are in warm water bastions, off Hamilton Bermuda and south of Alaska.

[SuburbanFarmer]

I never said the American bastions are under the polar icecap, that's a Russian bastion, but their Boomers are specially designed to punch through the thicker ice with reinforced hulls and a precision thruster system, then launch their SLBM's from the surface, American SSBN's can't do that, they can only launch from the hover while dived, so the polar bastion is not open to the American TRIAD, that's a Russian trick which America has never bothered to master.

The Russian first strike however, would come by way of the polar bastion, although no doubt they'd creep down into Canadian waters so they could launch on the Great Plains point blank. They'd use the polar ice to shake their American tails, then they'd sneak south through Canada, where there is nothing which would be able to interdict them. They could literally pop up through the ice flows on Hudsons Bay, within spitting distance of the Minuteman III's.

American SSBN's are in warm water bastions, off Hamilton Bermuda and south of Alaska.

Ok, and the part about blowing up our boomers with tactical underwater nukes because "anywhere around Bermuda is fine" is still working for you, eh? No chance we'd see that happen, and react.

Also, Putin is just counting the days until he can pull this global gambit, so that his failing country can move from #6 to #5, and the rest of the world will just chill and say 'that was shiny'?

[Smitty-48]

The Russians would locate the American SSBN track, they know the general area where it is, they creep in quiet, trail the variable depth towed array sonar, that gives them a solution on the Boomer, then they attack it at standoff range with a nuclear anti-submarine rocket, but you're talking a tactical weapon with a comparatively tiny yield, 1 kiloton warhead, it's not a massive explosion at all, it's contained by the water pressure, it's not the nuke which kills the SSBN, it's the shockwave, the wall of super pressurized dense water that the undersurface detonation generates, but the effects above the surface, is actually very localized, it's not a giant mushroom cloud climbing into the heavens, it's just a big depth charge.

SOSUS will detect it, but that doesn't mean they know that that was a Russian submarine nuking an American submarine, by the time that information was gleaned, confirmed, and then got up to the NCA to issue the Gold Codes for a retaliation, the Minuteman III silos are already slagged.

There was a time when Soviet submarines were too noisey and only NATO had the towed array, and so Mr. Ivan could never have pulled this off, but thanks to espionage and the proliferation of western technology over the former Iron Curtain, those days are long past, the Russians are near parity now, with all the bells and whistles, they just need to have a general idea where the SSBN is hiding, then they can narrow that down relatively easily, once they do, they can close to get a solution for an asroc shot with a pinhead nuke therein, ain't no thang, all that is required is the resolve to do it.