Freedom of Association

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Hanarchy Montanarchy
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Re: Freedom of Association

Post by Hanarchy Montanarchy » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:07 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:
Hanarchy Montanarchy wrote:
To rephrase, "should you have the liberty to keep people from freely associating with you?"

Imagonna rephrase your rephrasing: "Who gave you the 'right' to force people to associate with those whom they don't like??"


Maybe we need to go back to what natural rights actually mean and recover that old ground, because this is getting silly.
God made a world full of people I don't like. I can take issue with God, but there isn't much I can really do about it... unless ya'll want to make me dictator for life.

Warning, I care less about your natural rights than God, though, so it might get a little hairy.
HAIL!

Her needs America so they won't just take his shit away like in some pussy non gun totting countries can happen.
-Hwen

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Freedom of Association

Post by Speaker to Animals » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:38 pm

Hanarchy Montanarchy wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:
Hanarchy Montanarchy wrote:
To rephrase, "should you have the liberty to keep people from freely associating with you?"

Imagonna rephrase your rephrasing: "Who gave you the 'right' to force people to associate with those whom they don't like??"


Maybe we need to go back to what natural rights actually mean and recover that old ground, because this is getting silly.
God made a world full of people I don't like. I can take issue with God, but there isn't much I can really do about it... unless ya'll want to make me dictator for life.

Warning, I care less about your natural rights than God, though, so it might get a little hairy.

You were the one invoking rights. What does that even mean if not natural rights? If it means whatever the state says it means, then sure, you have a right to whatever the state says you do, and you have no right to whatever the state says you have no right to. If you disagree with that, then you ventured into natural rights territory, son. Welcome! Now let's figure out what exactly you mean by the statement that we should not have the liberty to keep people from associating with us.

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LVH2
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Re: Freedom of Association

Post by LVH2 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:42 pm

I'm not a fan of interpretations of the word freedom that reduce to live in the streets.

Most people have to get a job. Most of those jobs have co-workers. So you are pretty much compelled to associate with companies and co-workers. This is much closer to forced association than having union shops. Yet this is freedom because you could always chose to be homeless.

If those co-workers wish to bargain collectively, which seems to generally be in their best interests, it just doesn't work without some kind of union.

Most working people I've spoken to are excited to get union jobs. Just talked to an acquaintance who got one yesterday, in fact. Yes, people will bitch about unions once they are in them, as they are imperfect like everything. But, in my experience, people are more excited to get union jobs. Rarely hear people say, "I got a construction job, but unfortunately I'll be in a union." Though I have heard it.

I've had both, since as a sub, I was in the teachers union. I liked being in a union. When I wasn't, I had an employer that would openly announce that they were breaking labor laws. If I didn't like it, I could hire a lawyer with $20,000 I didn't have. That was freedom. If I'd been unfree and in a union, we could have kicked them squarely in the balls.

If you'd prefer a non-union job, they are much easier to come by.

"Right to work" weakens unions. At least, this is my understanding.

When unions are strong, you can always choose a worse, non-union job, if it bothers you to be in a union. When unions are weakened, it becomes difficult to get into one.

Freedom max: many union jobs to choose from, many non-union jobs to choose from. You can be in a union or not.

Feedom min: I have to work 3 part time jobs, I can't afford significant medical care, etc. I wish I could get a good union job, but I can't.

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Hanarchy Montanarchy
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Re: Freedom of Association

Post by Hanarchy Montanarchy » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:50 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:
Hanarchy Montanarchy wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:

Imagonna rephrase your rephrasing: "Who gave you the 'right' to force people to associate with those whom they don't like??"


Maybe we need to go back to what natural rights actually mean and recover that old ground, because this is getting silly.
God made a world full of people I don't like. I can take issue with God, but there isn't much I can really do about it... unless ya'll want to make me dictator for life.

Warning, I care less about your natural rights than God, though, so it might get a little hairy.

You were the one invoking rights. What does that even mean if not natural rights? If it means whatever the state says it means, then sure, you have a right to whatever the state says you do, and you have no right to whatever the state says you have no right to. If you disagree with that, then you ventured into natural rights territory, son. Welcome! Now let's figure out what exactly you mean by the statement that we should not have the liberty to keep people from associating with us.
The only time I mentioned 'rights' was to point out that everyone's rights are equivalent. That is true if they are natural rights, and should probably be true if they are rights issued from the state.

Now, I haven't exactly stated if I think people have the liberty to keep people from associating with them or not, but bring it up to point out that the OP seems to rest on the assumption that "Freedom to associate" is equivalent to "Freedom not to associate."

I haven't done the logical work in great detail, since it isn't an issue particularly close to my heart, but I suspect that the premise of the OP is faulty.
HAIL!

Her needs America so they won't just take his shit away like in some pussy non gun totting countries can happen.
-Hwen

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: Freedom of Association

Post by Speaker to Animals » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:53 pm

Hanarchy Montanarchy wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:
Hanarchy Montanarchy wrote:
God made a world full of people I don't like. I can take issue with God, but there isn't much I can really do about it... unless ya'll want to make me dictator for life.

Warning, I care less about your natural rights than God, though, so it might get a little hairy.

You were the one invoking rights. What does that even mean if not natural rights? If it means whatever the state says it means, then sure, you have a right to whatever the state says you do, and you have no right to whatever the state says you have no right to. If you disagree with that, then you ventured into natural rights territory, son. Welcome! Now let's figure out what exactly you mean by the statement that we should not have the liberty to keep people from associating with us.
The only time I mentioned 'rights' was to point out that everyone's rights are equivalent. That is true if they are natural rights, and should probably be true if they are rights issued from the state.

Now, I haven't exactly stated if I think people have the liberty to keep people from associating with them or not, but bring it up to point out that the OP seems to rest on the assumption that "Freedom to associate" is equivalent to "Freedom not to associate."

I haven't done the logical work in great detail, since it isn't an issue particularly close to my heart, but I suspect that the premise of the OP is faulty.

Freedom of association means we are free to form groups and organizations composed by whatever metric we want. Is that really some vague concept you fail to understand?

The question of unions is not, as some people propose, a question of whether people have the free association right to work at a place without joining a union. The question is whether Americans have the right to associate into exclusive organizations for their own exclusive and mutual benefit.

I.e. if capitalists (investors) have the right to join together into a corporation, then why should not workers have the right to join together into a union? It seems to me that the two things are linked. If one is wrong, then so is the other. The people who are consistent would either support both or neither. But if you support neither, then I am not sure how you can claim to support the freedom of association at all.

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Hanarchy Montanarchy
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Re: Freedom of Association

Post by Hanarchy Montanarchy » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:58 pm

The question of unions pits two different versions of free association against each other, and both versions have merit.
HAIL!

Her needs America so they won't just take his shit away like in some pussy non gun totting countries can happen.
-Hwen

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Fife
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Re: Freedom of Association

Post by Fife » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:00 pm

Hanarchy Montanarchy wrote:I haven't done the logical work in great detail, since it isn't an issue particularly close to my heart, but I suspect that the premise of the OP is faulty.
It's rather obvious that you haven't done the logical work in "great detail."

Tell us all why you suspect the premise of the OP is faulty.

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Fife
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Re: Freedom of Association

Post by Fife » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:03 pm

Hanarchy Montanarchy wrote:The question of unions pits two different versions of free association against each other, and both versions have merit.
Lay out both versions, quick and dirty.

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Hanarchy Montanarchy
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Re: Freedom of Association

Post by Hanarchy Montanarchy » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:09 pm

Fife wrote:
Hanarchy Montanarchy wrote:I haven't done the logical work in great detail, since it isn't an issue particularly close to my heart, but I suspect that the premise of the OP is faulty.
It's rather obvious that you haven't done the logical work in "great detail."

Tell us all why you suspect the premise of the OP is faulty.
You and I have the freedom to be best friends, which I assume we, basically, are. As such, we should be able to associate freely with each other whenever and where ever we like.

Now, what if it turns out that you don't like my company quite as much as I like yours? Where does your liberty to exclude me from your company begin, and my liberty to hang out with my best friend end? Are they the same liberty? Are they fundamentally different liberties?

I am sure my very clever best friend has a solution to those questions that are, alas, hidden from me.
HAIL!

Her needs America so they won't just take his shit away like in some pussy non gun totting countries can happen.
-Hwen

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LVH2
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Re: Freedom of Association

Post by LVH2 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:10 pm

The freedom to form and maintain a union, and the freedom to pursue a union job, vs. the freedom to take a union job and then refuse to join the union.