The Religion Discussion Thread

[TheReal_ND]

At the very least, you have to concede that there is absolutely no active hand in our daily lives

Nobody except Jesus said there was you stupid nigger.

Welp, since he's the basis of Christianity, that does lead one to think that it may apply to the religion, but I guess you can disregard anything you wish. Christians are singularly proficient at editing their beliefs to fit the situation at hand.

Are we still arguing against the existence of God or are we just trying to figure out who believes the Bible 100% so we can point and laugh at them?

[Okeefenokee]

If I can see the future, then that future is already determined. If the future is determined, then you, me, and 7 billion others have no control over their own minds. If that's the case, then throw open the jails, and abandon personal responsibility.

Or, just wave your hand at it, and feel superior. /shrug

You

are

not

God.

When you see a chair, you are observing a point in space that you don't occupy. At that moment, there is a point, one point, in space that you occupy. If you could see the future, you would be seeing a point in time that you don't occupy. You would have to wait until that time came in order to occupy it, and then you would no longer occupy the point in time where were when you saw the future.

This is the condition of a mortal that can only occupy one point in time and space. You are assuming that your experience is the same as God's, that because you can only be in one point in time and space, then God must also be so limited. You are assuming that what God knows about your future is what He sees, implying that He can only observe somewhere that He isn't from somewhere He is, as though he is just as locked in time as you are, and that he's locked into the same time that you are.

No, I understand completely. All timelines happening simultaneously.

Looking at that chair (call it the Chair of Sin), I can see everyone that will sit in it, ever, right? But now that I know that, do they still have a choice to sit or not sit in it? Since the event has already happened, do I wait for them to sit in it before yelling at them, or do I just do it pre-emptively? Do I move the chair out of the way, to prevent them sitting in it, or leave it there, and then blame them for sitting there?

I wouldn't call it seeing everyone that will sit in it. That's more mortal bias. That someone will do something implies it hasn't happened yet, which implies a perspective from present to future. Like I said, this is outside of our wheelhouse.

Even "timelines happening simultaneously," implies a chronology of events, which is how you perceive time if you're mortal.

If you can move through time, or better yet, if you can be at all points in time at once, eternally, you don't see a chair that someone will sit in, you see them sitting in it, and you see them not sitting in it, and knowing what they do and don't do has no bearing on them deciding to do it.

[SuburbanFarmer]

You

are

not

God.

When you see a chair, you are observing a point in space that you don't occupy. At that moment, there is a point, one point, in space that you occupy. If you could see the future, you would be seeing a point in time that you don't occupy. You would have to wait until that time came in order to occupy it, and then you would no longer occupy the point in time where were when you saw the future.

This is the condition of a mortal that can only occupy one point in time and space. You are assuming that your experience is the same as God's, that because you can only be in one point in time and space, then God must also be so limited. You are assuming that what God knows about your future is what He sees, implying that He can only observe somewhere that He isn't from somewhere He is, as though he is just as locked in time as you are, and that he's locked into the same time that you are.

No, I understand completely. All timelines happening simultaneously.

Looking at that chair (call it the Chair of Sin), I can see everyone that will sit in it, ever, right? But now that I know that, do they still have a choice to sit or not sit in it? Since the event has already happened, do I wait for them to sit in it before yelling at them, or do I just do it pre-emptively? Do I move the chair out of the way, to prevent them sitting in it, or leave it there, and then blame them for sitting there?

I wouldn't call it seeing everyone that will sit in it. That's more mortal bias. That someone will do something implies it hasn't happened yet, which implies a perspective from present to future. Like I said, this is outside of our wheelhouse.

Even "timelines happening simultaneously," implies a chronology of events, which is how you perceive time if you're mortal.

If you can move through time, or better yet, if you can be at all points in time at once, eternally, you don't see a chair that someone will sit in, you see them sitting in it, and you see them not sitting in it, and knowing what they do and don't do has no bearing on them deciding to do it.

Word games, and failing to even consider the main point. Par for the course.

From the perspective of Observer, the 'future' occupants of the chair may choose to sit or not. From the perspective of Creator, they already are sitting there. Fine.

Now, knowing that Observer is trapped in a linear timeline, and knowing that he can only choose to sit or not to sit, if Creator already knows that he will sit, then how does Observer have a choice?

If you still insist that he has a choice, then how can Creator see him sitting in it, in the future?

"But.. but... he's God!!" Ok, fine. Whatever works for you. I can't argue against Magical Boogeyman That Fits Whatever You Want.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Nobody except Jesus said there was you stupid nigger.

Welp, since he's the basis of Christianity, that does lead one to think that it may apply to the religion, but I guess you can disregard anything you wish. Christians are singularly proficient at editing their beliefs to fit the situation at hand.

Are we still arguing against the existence of God or are we just trying to figure out who believes the Bible 100% so we can point and laugh at them?

I will not argue that there is no God. I will argue that organized religion is a complete folly, and has no place in rational discussion of anything outside personal beliefs. I'll argue the absurdities of religious text, and show that there is no coherent structure to any of it. But I can't disprove Your God. And you can't disprove mine.

[Okeefenokee]

No, I understand completely. All timelines happening simultaneously.

Looking at that chair (call it the Chair of Sin), I can see everyone that will sit in it, ever, right? But now that I know that, do they still have a choice to sit or not sit in it? Since the event has already happened, do I wait for them to sit in it before yelling at them, or do I just do it pre-emptively? Do I move the chair out of the way, to prevent them sitting in it, or leave it there, and then blame them for sitting there?

I wouldn't call it seeing everyone that will sit in it. That's more mortal bias. That someone will do something implies it hasn't happened yet, which implies a perspective from present to future. Like I said, this is outside of our wheelhouse.

Even "timelines happening simultaneously," implies a chronology of events, which is how you perceive time if you're mortal.

If you can move through time, or better yet, if you can be at all points in time at once, eternally, you don't see a chair that someone will sit in, you see them sitting in it, and you see them not sitting in it, and knowing what they do and don't do has no bearing on them deciding to do it.

Word games, and failing to even consider the main point. Par for the course.

From the perspective of Observer, the 'future' occupants of the chair may choose to sit or not. From the perspective of Creator, they already are sitting there. Fine.

Now, knowing that Observer is trapped in a linear timeline, and knowing that he can only choose to sit or not to sit, if Creator already knows that he will sit, then how does Observer have a choice?

If you still insist that he has a choice, then how can Creator see him sitting in it, in the future?

"But.. but... he's God!!" Ok, fine. Whatever works for you. I can't argue against Magical Boogeyman That Fits Whatever You Want.

You're really dumb.

[Fife]

Poor A. Square, things are so simple there.

[Ex-California]

Just be happy we can discuss this. Just a couple hundred years ago you guys would be set on fire

[Hastur]

I find it fascinating how the people who say they don't have faith are the same people who are the most firm in their beliefs.

[SuburbanFarmer]

I find it fascinating how the people who say they don't have faith are the same people who are the most firm in their beliefs.

Fully willing (and part of me wishing), to accept a new religious paradigm, given the smallest shred of objective evidence. Life is much, much easier with a Daddy-figure to follow.

[Kazmyr]

I find it fascinating how the people who say they don't have faith are the same people who are the most firm in their beliefs.

Life is much, much easier with a Daddy-figure to follow.

That's assuming that following whatever the "Daddy-figure tells you to do" is easy. What if Daddy-figure demands sacrifice?