DCF Refugee Internment Camp

[Xenophon]

The Nazi leaders were subhuman, I would have had no need for justice, only vengeance.

I understand your anger and desire for vindication, but those base emotions must be tempered by our institutions and Constitution. The 6th Amendment is an important one.

[SuburbanFarmer]

The Nazi leaders were subhuman, I would have had no need for justice, only vengeance.

Good little robot.

Indeed. It's rather childish to think "that could never be me". It could easily have been you.

On the other hand...

Torturing people for vital intel to possibly save lives is one thing, but torturing Nazis that are going to stand trial to (if true,) get them to confess to war crimes they may or may not have done? Why? The war is over, there is no justification for it because it can't possibly save any lives as a measure of last resort, therefore it is the most cowardly and low life form of torture there is. Again, if true. ALLEGEDLY

There are no degrees of torture. It's disgusting and inhuman. No lives have ever been saved by it, nor will they ever be. Jack Bauer was a fucking psychopathic fairytale.

[Montegriffo]

No lives have ever been saved by it, nor will they ever be.

That's a bold statement and very hard to prove.
Whilst I agree whole heartedly with your sentiment, I don't think I could ever rule it out completely.
I try to be moral in life and I could never do it myself but in a "find the terrorist nuke in New York" scenario I would have to give it a try. Probably wouldn't work with a fanatic, intent on killing millions, but for the sake of all those innocents I think it would be justified.

[Cid]

Official report says torture hasn't produced actionable intel.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-fg-tor ... story.html

[SuburbanFarmer]

No lives have ever been saved by it, nor will they ever be.

That's a bold statement and very hard to prove.
Whilst I agree whole heartedly with your sentiment, I don't think I could ever rule it out completely.
I try to be moral in life and I could never do it myself but in a "find the terrorist nuke in New York" scenario I would have to give it a try. Probably wouldn't work with a fanatic, intent on killing millions, but for the sake of all those innocents I think it would be justified.

Dude, if they had anything to justify Guantanimo Bay, or Abu Gharib, it would have been pounded into our skulls over the past 10 years or so. There's absolutely no benefit whatsoever.

[Montegriffo]

Perhaps, I just think it's a bit of a stretch to say no life has ever been saved by it.

[Cid]

Dan Carlin had a good episode on it. Very well reasoned. There's a difference between having a policy of torture, and an individual with authority abusing that authority for their idea of the greater good. You have a policy, then you take the humanity out of the decision to do something that is as brutal as combat, and you get people who are good at torture being promoted, even if they'd never earn that position in a rational world.

So I agree with you, can't say it never has, but how we look at torture probably matters more than any possible lives saved.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Perhaps, I just think it's a bit of a stretch to say no life has ever been saved by it.

Ok, I'll rephrase - Occam's Razor, common sense, and all available evidence point to the fact that no life has ever been saved by psychologically destroying another one.

[Montegriffo]

Perhaps, I just think it's a bit of a stretch to say no life has ever been saved by it.

Ok, I'll rephrase - Occam's Razor, common sense, and all available evidence point to the fact that no life has ever been saved by psychologically destroying another one.

Ok then, rather than bust out a rhyme I'll just agree you are correct. Doesn't feel right to be arguing for torture anyhows.

[Ex-California]

The Nazi leaders were subhuman, I would have had no need for justice, only vengeance.

Good little robot.

Indeed. It's rather childish to think "that could never be me". It could easily have been you.

I'm talking about the leaders, not the rank and file. I don't think I could be a Hitler, Goering, Himmler, etc.