Socialism vs. Capitalism: A Debate with Jacobin Magazine

[Fife]

Here's a bit of fun weekend viewing: An Oxford style debate; Which economic system is most effective at bringing freedom to the masses? Jacobin magazine's Bhaskar Sunkara and economist Gene Epstein in a live debate.

[Speaker to Animals]

Freedom to do what exactly? You have to define terms here to come to a decision.

I would argue, for example, thar medieval manorialism provides more freedom of time and freedom to live out one's family life than capitalism or socialism, but certainly no economic freedom for anybody. Socialism provides more economic freedom for the average worker than capitalism, but capitalism provides more economic freedom to the business owners/investors/innovators.

Freedom to be a degenerate is not tied to the economic systems, though cultural Marxism seems to force degeneracy upon people in the name of "freedom".

The question becomes, which freedoms, and for whom.

[GloryofGreece]

Freedom to do what exactly? You have to define terms here to come to a decision.

I would argue, for example, thar medieval manorialism provides more freedom of time and freedom to live out one's family life than capitalism or socialism, but certainly no economic freedom for anybody. Socialism provides more economic freedom for the average worker than capitalism, but capitalism provides more economic freedom to the business owners/investors/innovators.

Freedom to be a degenerate is not tied to the economic systems, though cultural Marxism seems to force degeneracy upon people in the name of "freedom".

The question becomes, which freedoms, and for whom.

I've heard you mention this before and I've read a good bit more about Medieval England these past several months, but was it really quantifiable true that is was essentially your time was 1/3rd work, 1/3rd home, 1/3rd church? I'd imagine with all the fasting, feast days, and holidays there was a lot of mandatory time "off" work but did peasant farmers generally not starve to death anymore regularly than say an 19th century Western European?

[Speaker to Animals]

Freedom to do what exactly? You have to define terms here to come to a decision.

I would argue, for example, thar medieval manorialism provides more freedom of time and freedom to live out one's family life than capitalism or socialism, but certainly no economic freedom for anybody. Socialism provides more economic freedom for the average worker than capitalism, but capitalism provides more economic freedom to the business owners/investors/innovators.

Freedom to be a degenerate is not tied to the economic systems, though cultural Marxism seems to force degeneracy upon people in the name of "freedom".

The question becomes, which freedoms, and for whom.

I've heard you mention this before and I've read a good bit more about Medieval England these past several months, but was it really quantifiable true that is was essentially your time was 1/3rd work, 1/3rd home, 1/3rd church? I'd imagine with all the fasting, feast days, and holidays there was a lot of mandatory time "off" work but did peasant farmers generally not starve to death anymore regularly than say an 19th century Western European?

About half the year was a holy day (holiday) or some other secular event. English peasants and yeoman worked quite a lot less that the typical American worker today.

They possessed little if any economic freedom, however. Productivity was shit compared to capitalism or even socialism.

People look at these things as partisans for a particular ideology rather than just objectively considering each system.

[GloryofGreece]

Freedom to do what exactly? You have to define terms here to come to a decision.

I would argue, for example, thar medieval manorialism provides more freedom of time and freedom to live out one's family life than capitalism or socialism, but certainly no economic freedom for anybody. Socialism provides more economic freedom for the average worker than capitalism, but capitalism provides more economic freedom to the business owners/investors/innovators.

Freedom to be a degenerate is not tied to the economic systems, though cultural Marxism seems to force degeneracy upon people in the name of "freedom".

The question becomes, which freedoms, and for whom.

I've heard you mention this before and I've read a good bit more about Medieval England these past several months, but was it really quantifiable true that is was essentially your time was 1/3rd work, 1/3rd home, 1/3rd church? I'd imagine with all the fasting, feast days, and holidays there was a lot of mandatory time "off" work but did peasant farmers generally not starve to death anymore regularly than say an 19th century Western European?

About half the year was a holy day (holiday) or some other secular event. English peasants and yeoman worked quite a lot less that the typical American worker today.

They possessed little if any economic freedom, however. Productivity was shit compared to capitalism or even socialism.

People look at these things as partisans for a particular ideology rather than just objectively considering each system.

Personally the idea of more time with my family and for spiritual development seems appealing and worth more than endless economic choice.

[Speaker to Animals]

I've heard you mention this before and I've read a good bit more about Medieval England these past several months, but was it really quantifiable true that is was essentially your time was 1/3rd work, 1/3rd home, 1/3rd church? I'd imagine with all the fasting, feast days, and holidays there was a lot of mandatory time "off" work but did peasant farmers generally not starve to death anymore regularly than say an 19th century Western European?

About half the year was a holy day (holiday) or some other secular event. English peasants and yeoman worked quite a lot less that the typical American worker today.

They possessed little if any economic freedom, however. Productivity was shit compared to capitalism or even socialism.

People look at these things as partisans for a particular ideology rather than just objectively considering each system.

Personally the idea of more time with my family and for spiritual development seems appealing and worth more than endless economic choice.

You get very low economic production and limited innovation.

[GloryofGreece]

I think if i had a choice I would chose the other opportunities. But it a faulty thought experiment for myself b/c i have only ever directly experienced modernity therefore its all i really truly know phenomenologically. Its impossible to escape even imaginatively really.