Heroes You Hate/Villains You Love

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DBTrek
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Heroes You Hate/Villains You Love

Post by DBTrek » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:41 am

Who do you admire for having an exceptional talent/ability/achievement, but would also probably wind up tussling with if you were forced to sit down with them at Thanksgiving dinner?

I'll give you one example.
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Rod Serling.

I love short/weird fiction, and though it's a TV show, it's hard to find a better collection of great, uncanny tales than the Twilight Zone. It's hard to believe any story writer could watch the Twilight Zone and not feel some amount of awe at the sheer quantity and quality of output. Rod Serling was an exceptional story teller. Bordering on visionary, I'd say.

Rod Serling the man though . . . was pretty much a mouthy SJW fifty years before it was mainstream. His wikipedia page doesn't paint it in stark terms, but the gist of it is there. "He was known as the "angry young man" of Hollywood, clashing with television executives and sponsors over a wide range of issues including censorship, racism, and war." Now, it's not like Hollywood was populated by a bunch of censoring, pro-war, racists, so when Rod is "clashing" with these folks you have to ask yourself how far left of Hollywood he was for his time.

He was also a shit soldier. Exceptionally bad from the sound of it. Also from Wikipedia - "According to Sergeant Frank Lewis, leader of the demolitions squad, "He screwed up somewhere along the line. Apparently he got on someone's nerves." Lewis also judged that Serling was not suited to be a field soldier: "he didn't have the wits or aggressiveness required for combat." At one point, Lewis, Serling, and others were in a firefight, trapped in a foxhole. As they waited for darkness, Lewis noticed that Serling had not reloaded any of his extra magazines. Serling sometimes went exploring on his own, against orders, and got lost."

So it's likely that Rod and I wouldn't get along much in a face-to-face sit down, but that aside, I maintain a great respect for his body of work.

Who are the heroes you hate?
Last edited by DBTrek on Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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C-Mag
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Re: Heroes You Hate

Post by C-Mag » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:50 am

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................... good one, I will have to give it some thought.

I didn't know that about Serling.............. thanks !
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C-Mag
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Re: Heroes You Hate

Post by C-Mag » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:57 am

How about Dan Carlin :twisted:
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Fife
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Re: Heroes You Hate

Post by Fife » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:09 am

DBTrek wrote:He was also a shit soldier.
Where'd you get this stuff? I haven't read that kind of spin on his service before. It's well-known that he was open about whatever they called PTSD back in those days after returning from the war.

What is factual, and not in dispute, is that he earned a Purple Heart, Bronze Star, and Philippine Liberation Medal after combat on Leyte. https://www.military.com/veteran-jobs/c ... rling.html

Despite receiving two wounds on the island, Serling was still ready for combat and deployed with his platoon to Tagaytay Ridge in 1945 and marched on Manilla. Japanese forces defended the city with 17,000 troops and laid numerous traps. It took roughly one month to take control of the city. When a city block was peaceful enough and devoid of Japanese forces, locals would celebrate with the Allies. Serling's unit was enjoying such hospitality one night when Japanese artillery rained down on them. He ran into the shellfire to rescue a performer, earning the notice of his sergeant.


There are at least some conflicting reports about what happened during his time in the PI.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2011/07/06/mem ... ight-zone/
Serling also had a devastating experience while serving in World War II. During a lull at the Battle of Leyte Gulf in the Pacific, he was standing with his arm around a good friend and they were having their picture taken. At that moment, an Air Force plane dropped a box of extra ammunition that landed on Serling’s friend and flattened him so fatally that he couldn’t even be seen under the box.

“Many ‘Zone’ episodes are about that split-second of fate where somebody arbitrarily gets spared or, absurdly, does not,” Brode said.
And yeah, he was "anti-Hollywood." Good.

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/06/opinion/06dowd.html
Serling himself lived a reversal, going from a trailer park after the war and 40 rejection slips in a row to having a big Hollywood house and a pool. But he grew disdainful of Babylon’s corrupting materialism and moved back to a cottage on Cayuga Lake in upstate New York. Serling fought furiously against censorship and ads, asking how you could write meaningful drama when it was interrupted every 15 minutes by “12 dancing rabbits with toilet paper?”

. . .

“The Twilight Zone” was never gangbusters in the ratings, and Serling — who smoked on screen — died at 50 from the ravages of six packs a day. He felt like a sellout and failure. He had sold syndication rights for his show to CBS for a few million, thinking he had not written anything of lasting value.

Sadly, he gave himself a trick ending. He died never realizing how influential he would be.

You seem to go out of your way to paint Serling as some kind of coward, or at least incompetent. No cites. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I think you are out to lunch on Serling here. IMNSHO
Last edited by Fife on Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Heroes You Hate

Post by Montegriffo » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:13 am

John Lennon. Great songwriter, activist for peace and a funny man.
Obnoxious arsehole to all those around him.
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DBTrek
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Re: Heroes You Hate

Post by DBTrek » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:19 am

Wow Fife, deductive reasoning not a strong point with you, eh?
When portions of the city were taken from Japanese control, local civilians sometimes showed their gratitude by throwing parties and hosting banquets. During one of these parties, Serling and his comrades were fired upon, resulting in many soldier and civilian deaths. Serling, still a private after three years, caught the attention of Sergeant Lewis when he ran into the line of fire to rescue a performer who had been on stage when the artillery started firing.

As it moved in on Iwabuchi's stronghold, Serling's regiment had a 50% casualty rate, with over 400 men killed. Serling was wounded and three comrades were killed by shrapnel from rounds fired at his roving demolition team by an antiaircraft gun.[4]:50 He was sent to New Guinea to recover but soon returned to Manila to finish "cleaning up".[clarification needed]

Serling's final assignment was as part of the occupation force in Japan.[4]:51 During his military service, Private Serling was awarded the Purple Heart, the Bronze Star,[10] and the Philippine Liberation Medal.
Yep, fuck-off Serling who wouldn't reload in a firefight, who was actively in a war for three years and STILL remained a private (I made PFC in 3 months during peace time), who would wander off at random (AWOL in a war zone), got a purple heart for being wounded, a Liberation medal that likely went to all members of a unit, not individuals, and a bronze star.

Obviously a super trooper, dude.
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Re: Heroes You Hate

Post by Hanarchy Montanarchy » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:23 am

Night Gallery had some real stinkers.
HAIL!

Her needs America so they won't just take his shit away like in some pussy non gun totting countries can happen.
-Hwen

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Fife
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Re: Heroes You Hate

Post by Fife » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:31 am

DB, I was just asking where you were getting those reports. I've never heard that kind of trash about the man before, and it's in conflict with what I both recalled and was able to google up from military.com and others in about 30 seconds.

Whatever, man, be the provocateur; I dig that myself. I do like to at least wink and nod at the facts, most of the time, though.

I'm not pissing on Serling for shits and giggles; quite the opposite, I'm willing to deal with his record objectively and fairly. So far, my recollections seem consistent with the record, as opposed to what was jotted down by some kid on Wiki.

As for somebody's work I really enjoy, but was probably an unbearable dick IRL, I'll go first with Heinlein. I don't have to repeat rubbish gossip about the man to make that assessment, though. And I most definitely don't "hate" him.

Weird OP and title, but rock on. Got me to click! :goteam: :drunk:
Last edited by Fife on Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DBTrek
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Re: Heroes You Hate

Post by DBTrek » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:34 am

Fife wrote:DB, I was just asking where you were getting those reports. I've never heard that kind of trash about the man before, and it's in conflict with what I both recalled and was able to google up from military.com and others in about 30 seconds.

Whatever, man, be the provocateur; I dig that myself. I do like to at least wink and nod at the facts, most of the time, though.

Plus, I'm not pissing on Serling for shits and giggles; quite the opposite.

As for somebody's work I really enjoy, but was probably an unbearable dick IRL, I'll go first with Heinlein. I don't have to repeat rubbish gossip about the man to make that assessment, though.
I quoted "wikipedia" twice in the OP. Did you try looking at his cited wikipedia page?
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Re: Heroes You Hate

Post by C-Mag » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:38 am

Henry Ford is my man.
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Ford was a self made man, essentially grew up a poor farmer, had a knack for mechanical things early on. Passed on the family farm, became a machinist and then engineer working for Edison before revolutionizing the Auto Industry.

Ford put the world on wheels, and while we often think of the casual uses of cars, the real value was how much more productive it made the average person, the hours of labor spent dealing with beasts of burden. The number of lives saved by being able to get a sick or injured person to medical attention will never be known. An cars brought freedom of movement to many. He did this by making cars affordable, but paying his workers twice the going rate.

But there was a price to pay with Ford. If you took one of those good jobs at his plant, you gave up all privacy and were required to live by Henry's moral code. Ford developed what was called the Ford Sociological Department, they were morality Police. It started out as a team of 50 “Investigators” eventually morphed into a team of 200 people who probed every aspect of their employees lives. And I mean every aspect.

Investigators would show up unannounced at your home, just to make sure it was being kept clean. They’d ask questions that were less appropriate of a car company, than they were for the modern-day CIA. They’d query you about your spending habits, your alcohol consumption, even your marital relationships. They’d ask what you were buying, and they’d check on your children to make sure they were in school.

Women weren’t eligible, unless they were single and had to support children. Men weren’t eligible unless the only work their wives did was in the home.

They were Henry Ford’s personal morality enforcers, making sure that everyone who took one of his paychecks lived up to his standards. Those standards included patriotism and assimilation, especially when it came to language. This wasn’t just a wanton disregard for other cultures (though that wasn’t not a part of it), but rather a safety issue. In a time of massive amounts of immigration from Europe, all Ford workers had to speak English. On the factory floor, a simple miscommunication could get someone killed. This is the duality of Henry Ford. He had strict rules, but he had his own reasons. If you wanted his benefits, you had to pay his price.

Ford had a school, to teach you English and help you get citizenship. He offered Low- or no-cost loans were on offer for buying new homes and furniture, lawyers were available for everything from citizenship applications to property purchasing, and a team of 10 doctors and 100 nurses was on staff to take care of employees and their families who fell ill, and also to advise on hygienic issues.

Then there was his famous anti-semitism. He hated Jews and had no problem saying it. It was so well known, Henry Ford is the only American mentioned in Mein Kampf. Ford and Hitler admired each other, Ford accepted the Grand Cross of the German Eagle, the Nazi regime’s highest honor for foreigners. Ford sold truck plans and built a plant in Germany. Ford continued to run that plant until halfway through 1942. American GIs were shocked when they took over the plant and found documents of Ford and Germany coordinating production well into WWII.

On the other hand, Ford motors produced like crazy for the War effort, they set up plants in approximately 12 states and 5 foreign allied nations. They produced bombers, tanks, jeeps, trucks, half-tracks........... over One Million Combat vehicles plus all kinds of other manufactured supplies. Ford provided leaderhip, training and technical support to the allies all over the globe to produce war materials.

Henry Ford did great things for us, but there was always a price. IMO, the guy was a Fascist. I've never heard that said before, but he was a great Collectivist.
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