Tribe - Sebastian Junger

[Smitty-48]

It's a thread he follows deeper in the book - when he starts talking about the astounding PTSD rates in the USA (even accounting for fraud) compared to the 1% PTSD rate of Israel then segues into how some native American tribes made warfare part of their normal lives, the larger pattern begins to emerge. People need to be useful and accepted by their "tribe" (he'd argue), and tribes need to be supportive of their warriors and allow them to be useful when they return rather than treating them like victims. He has a killer example of an African tribe that has been warriors from the dawn of time, but the UN showed up and started telling the soldiers that if they were "suffering" from their terrible experiences in war they could get food rations and other care.

You can guess how that went.

Suddenly all these tribesmen that were perfectly fine being warriors and making war for countless human generations "developed" mental disorders (and acquired food). Yet this shift in their culture had other unintended effects that we've seen replicated in the west. Suddenly the soldiers can't integrate back into their society anymore. They're victims, right? They can't be disabled by trauma yet go about their day to day like everything is fine. Social isolation sets in. The warriors go from being revered and accepted as men to being ostracized and pitied as broken men. Suicide rates go up. Mental illness goes up. Just as it does in western cultures when we follow the same policies.

We already knew all that tho, we were saying this on some "ZOMG PTSD!" thread way back on the DCF, like years ago now. How many times have we said it? Dozens of times, maybe hundreds, doesn't really matter tho, can't save them from themselves, the zeitgeist is what it is, and it's been like that since at least Vietnam.

To rid yourselves of the post Vietnam zeitgiest? Maybe someday, but no day soon, because the Boomers have sucessfully passed it on to their Echo Boomer spawn, so now you're stuck with it for another generation or two at least.

A good idea can live but a heartbeat, but ain't nothing take longer to die, than a wrong headed one.

[Smitty-48]

I mean, shit, the Millenials have now expanded the woe is us victimization complex of the post Vietnam zeitgeist, to literally every aspect of life, the whole generation has filed a claim for PTSD, existence itself, their pitiful trauma,

The everybody a victim cancer is spreading, it's in the bones by now.

[C-Mag]

Everyone from StA to GCF could benefit from reading this book, such is its ability to cross ideological lines.

Thanks, it will go on the list.
:goteam

[DBTrek]

I mean, shit, the Millenials have now expanded the woe is us victimization complex of the post Vietnam zeitgeist, to literally every aspect of life, the whole generation has filed a claim for PTSD, existence itself, their pitiful trauma,

The everybody a victim cancer is spreading, it's in the bones by now.

Yeah, it is pretty disturbing. Another reason I'm against Universal Basic Income. Look at what being "useless" has done for a disproportionate amount of our veterans - suicide, drug addiction, mental illness. And folks want to export that to the entire populace? They want to take the whole of society and basically say "We know there's no way you could possibly give back to your society in any meaningful way, so here's some pity money so you don't starve"?

No thanks.

Meanwhile in Israel, being a soldier and living near/in a live fire zone is a way of life. Nobody is singing the "poor, put-upon, damaged soldier" song over there. Lo and behold, they transition between military and civilian life like it's no big thing. By not subsidizing being mentally ill they seem to have largely eradicated the PTSD phenomenom.

Meanwhile in the USA, veterans diagnosed with PTSD are attending therapy sessions up until they finally achieve a 100% disability rating and then mysteriously dropping out of recovery programs. Which makes sense in a very cynical way. I mean, if your new identity is "that soldier who is all messed up from their deployment" you may as well get maximum benefit from it, right? Who wants to be that person and only take home 30% of the benefit?

[Smitty-48]

I mean, shit, the Millenials have now expanded the woe is us victimization complex of the post Vietnam zeitgeist, to literally every aspect of life, the whole generation has filed a claim for PTSD, existence itself, their pitiful trauma,

The everybody a victim cancer is spreading, it's in the bones by now.

Yeah, it is pretty disturbing. Another reason I'm against Universal Basic Income. Look at what being "useless" has done for a disproportionate amount of our veterans - suicide, drug addiction, mental illness. And folks want to export that to the entire populace? They want to take the whole of society and basically say "We know there's no way you could possibly give back to your society in any meaningful way, so here's some pity money so you don't starve"?

No thanks.

Meanwhile in Israel, being a soldier and living near/in a live fire zone is a way of life. Nobody is singing the "poor, put-upon, damaged soldier" song over there. Lo and behold, they transition between military and civilian life like it's no big thing. By not subsidizing being mentally ill they seem to have largely eradicated the PTSD phenomenom.

Meanwhile in the USA, veterans diagnosed with PTSD are attending therapy sessions up until they finally achieve a 100% disability rating and then mysteriously dropping out of recovery programs. Which makes sense in a very cynical way. I mean, if your new identity is "that soldier who is all messed up from their deployment" you may as well get maximum benefit from it, right? Who wants to be that person and only take home 30% of the benefit?

But you're missing the key ingredients in Isreal, mate, they're hedonists, and as the chosen ones, misanthropes, whereas in America, protestant work ethic, and the missionary impulse.

[DBTrek]

Junger says it's proximity to conflict, social acceptance of the warrior, and reintegration of the warrior as a full member to society rather than as a victimized class.
Not hedonism.

And he'd point to the Sioux as an alternative example.
Or the Kung.

/shrug

[Smitty-48]

Junger says it's proximity to conflict, social acceptance of the warrior, and reintegration of the warrior as a full member to society rather than as a victimized class.
Not hedonism.

And he'd point to the Sioux as an alternative example.
Or the Kung.

/shrug

What about the Russians? They're no closer to the battlefield than you are, they don't give a rats ass about the army, it's basically a gulag, and they have a victim complex a mile wide, yet they'd slot you without a second thought and sleep like a baby after.

What about the Chinese? Same-same.

The American Terrible Swift Sword, is wielded by the Lord, and that would be the New Testament Protestant one, Mission from God, mate, you think French Roman Catholics sit around blubbering about this sort of shit? Nah, mate. Couple hail mary's and you're good like that, now let's go to the beach...

[DBTrek]

Don't know about the Russian or Chinese military, but I'm betting they don't offer their vets 100% disability based on reciting a scary anecdote.
In fact, I suspect they put their asses directly back to work as soon as they chapter out of the military.

[Smitty-48]

Don't know about the Russian or Chinese military, but I'm betting they don't offer their vets 100% disability based on reciting a scary anecdote.
In fact, I suspect they put their asses directly back to work as soon as they chapter out of the military.

Wot, in Russia? Nah, they're all on the pensions, mate, why do you think Putin doesn't just go buck wild all the way to the Dniepr? Can't afford it, mate, he's got to pay the pensions, or they'll have his guts for garters.

PLA? It's a praetorian class, mate, job for life, basically the largest state run corporation in China.