Capitalism Cures Poverty

[DBTrek]

Capps is the herpes of this forum.

[StCapps]

Capps is the herpes of this forum.

DBTrek, when he has nothing to add, it's never ending string of insults to make himself feel better and distract himself from reality. Such an ankle biter.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Yeah - I used to be one to complain about how horribly the Chinese are treated. Once I learned and understood how much they suffered under Mao, it got put into perspective for me. Capitalism is the cure for poverty. The question is, what is the cure for capitalism once it gets to stage 4 Crony Syndrome?

I should hope we could set the bar a little higher than 'not as bad as Maoism.'

And in China, there was no getting to 'stage 4 Crony Syndrome.' They started at maximum cronyism, having inherited a load of Maoist shibboleths of central planning. Including, but not limited to, basically all media and information.

With the Xi government still forcibly removing people from the countryside, and the only sort of labor representation being a massive state run conglomerated 'union' of all Chinese workers, it isn't as simple as laborers freely trading their labor for the cheap production of iPhones... even setting aside the facile argument that the workers wage is set by what consumers are willing to shell out for their pocket-pornography-rectangles.

[BjornP]

Finland is trying it, and it’s failing for obvious reasons.
Well, reasons that are obvious to folks on the right half of the intellectual bell curve.

They still have a minimum wage. They aren't trying my plan, they have both UBI and a minimum wage, they didn't replace the minimum wage with UBI. Also Finland seems to be doing pretty good, despite not heeding my advice, so trying to paint Finland as economic failure because of UBI is kind of odd. If they got rid of the minimum wage, and raised the UBI, the Finnish system would work better.

You might want to spend maybe 30 seconds googling what the minimum wage in Finland is...

[K@th]

Yeah - I used to be one to complain about how horribly the Chinese are treated. Once I learned and understood how much they suffered under Mao, it got put into perspective for me. Capitalism is the cure for poverty. The question is, what is the cure for capitalism once it gets to stage 4 Crony Syndrome?

I should hope we could set the bar a little higher than 'not as bad as Maoism.'

And in China, there was no getting to 'stage 4 Crony Syndrome.' They started at maximum cronyism, having inherited a load of Maoist shibboleths of central planning. Including, but not limited to, basically all media and information.

With the Xi government still forcibly removing people from the countryside, and the only sort of labor representation being a massive state run conglomerated 'union' of all Chinese workers, it isn't as simple as laborers freely trading their labor for the cheap production of iPhones... even setting aside the facile argument that the workers wage is set by what consumers are willing to shell out for their pocket-pornography-rectangles.

You crawl before you walk, walk before you run.... etc. Rapid change can (and does) lead to chaos and confusion.

[StCapps]

You might want to spend maybe 30 seconds googling what the minimum wage in Finland is...

It varies depending on collective bargaining agreements but all workers are covered.
/shrugs

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

You crawl before you walk, walk before you run.... etc. Rapid change can (and does) lead to chaos and confusion.

Crawling, making sure to never turn you back on the Dragon Throne? How apt.

I think that agitating for improved labor conditions under a powerfully expanding economy counts as walking.

[Martin Hash]

What are “labor conditions”?
A say in the business? No.
Higher wages? How is your kid Ma & Pa Grocer’s responsibility?

Advocate for safety. Advocate for subsidies. Advocate for “a job if you want one.” But Ma & Pa don’t bear any obligation to you.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

What are “labor conditions”?
A say in the business? No.
Higher wages? How is your kid Ma & Pa Grocer’s responsibility?

Advocate for safety. Advocate for subsidies. Advocate for “a job if you want one.” But Ma & Pa don’t bear any obligation to you.

The term isn't all that complicated.

People negotiate for higher wages all the time. It has nothing to do with responsibility or obligation.

However, if when I try to negotiate for a higher wage from Ma & Pa, the military police come and kick my teeth in, and then when I try to tell someone about my teeth getting kicked in, I get thrown in jail, I think it may be reasonable to think that I might not be getting the fair market price for my labor... hypothetically speaking.

Safety standards are another fantastic benefit of #walkingstagecapitalism.

[Martin Hash]

What are “labor conditions”?
A say in the business? No.
Higher wages? How is your kid Ma & Pa Grocer’s responsibility?

Advocate for safety. Advocate for subsidies. Advocate for “a job if you want one.” But Ma & Pa don’t bear any obligation to you.

The term isn't all that complicated.

People negotiate for higher wages all the time. It has nothing to do with responsibility or obligation.

However, if when I try to negotiate for a higher wage from Ma & Pa, the military police come and kick my teeth in, and then when I try to tell someone about my teeth getting kicked in, I get thrown in jail, I think it may be reasonable to think that I might not be getting the fair market price for my labor... hypothetically speaking.

Safety standards are another fantastic benefit of #walkingstagecapitalism.

Did you just take your support of Collective Bargaining into the realm of science fiction? My arguments are always grounded in the fundamental principle of most-liberty-to-most-people: jackboots don't fit into that formulation.