The Draft: Pros-Cons and details

[C-Mag]

Name one.

Gadaffi, Iraq was done without using draftees...

Libya didn't cost any Americans. Libya is not Iraq.

Iraq put a huge strain on the Army. The only thing that kept the bottom from falling out was the economy crashing and the kids lining up for a job. Before that the suicide rate among recruiters was through the roof.

One of the reasons most actions today are special operations rather than regulars, is because the regulars want out or are gone.

I would add to this that we understaffed the wars. We should have had 3X as many troops on the ground to stabilize these countries. Quantity matters.

[C-Mag]

We're going in circles here. My point was that we do it way more now that we don't have a draft. Getting rid of the draft increased the frequency of dumb military adventures.

And why would you want the dreaftees anyways close to the action when you can fuck up countries not even using them?

What would change?[/quote]

Truman said, 'It took the Citizen Soldier to win WWII, in spite of the Regular Army'

What he meant by that is the military is a bureaucracy, more now than then. Citizen Soldiers bring a lot to the military in skills and outside the box thinking, and their desire to get the shit over with and go home. Germans commented that it didn't help that much shooting US Officers because our Soldiers were just going to come up with shit on their own. The US Military was ran by NCOs, not Officers. These men were most often Draftees. A lot of value in Draftees that 'professional' Soldiers all too often dismiss. Professional Soldiers rely far too much on SOP, Doctrine and Group Think.

[Okeefenokee]

I prefer not finnancing crazy gangsters to take over one of the few wealthier cointries of Africa and turn it into a shithole. But that is just me...

Likme i said the US can still act like fuckhead without a draft.

We're going in circles here. My point was that we do it way more now that we don't have a draft. Getting rid of the draft increased the frequency of dumb military adventures.

And why would you want the dreaftees anyways close to the action when you can fuck up countries not even using them?

What would change?

I think that's more than one issue.

One issue is sending in troops, and the other is drone wars.

Wars that involve sending in troops last longer when the public has no stake. Get rid of the draft, and you get the longest ground war in American history that has no end in sight.

Wars that don't involve sending in troops of course aren't gonna be affected much, and have to be addressed along different lines.

[heydaralon]

In terms of conflicts we've entered into without a pearl harbor moment, that shit went through the roof after the draft went away.

In terms of casus belli, do you think 9/11 was bigger than Gulf of Tonkin?

Gulf of Tonkin wasn't PH, and there was a draft.

Exactly, and more people died in Nam than the volunteer wars. Didn't even need Pearl Harbor for almost 60,000 Americans to die. The draft did not stop the war. Americans love to start wars, they just get tired of them fast, but not before thousands or tens of thousands get killed. We still make the same mistakes repeatedly. Its not just us. The British, Germans, French etc were eager as fuck for WW1. They wanted to fight. How can you look at the body counts of the 20th century and think that drafts will stop wars? There are plenty of good arguments for a draft, but I doubt it would make us more peaceful. The fact is, we lost 58,000 in Vietnam, 34,000 in Korea, 291,000 in World War 2, and 53,000 in World War 1 (please check these figures, I believe they are right, but it is late and I am not 100% awake, I am trying to provide accurate info on American lives lost. I will edit this post if I got those numbers wrong). How do these numbers stack up to the non draft wars we have fought since then? Are they bigger or smaller? Iraq has indeed lasted longer, but it is a lower burning conflict. Medicine has gotten much better, particularly treating combat injuries, but even taking that into account, the modern wars we fight in have less of a body count. I am absolutely not defending these conflicts, or ignoring the fact that modern medicine can now save a soldier with 3rd degree burns on most of his body (and the hellish life he faces after that). There are many casualties of war that are not counted in the official statistics, or swept under the rug by our society. It is also very chicken hawkish to advocate other people fight conflicts you are unwilling to get into yourself. But I can't look at our history and reach the conclusion that drafts would prevent these wars from happening. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Andrew Bacevich, and he is an author that makes a variation of this argument. But I would have to disagree with the dude.

[Zero]

Sounds great comrade C-Mag.

The idea does seem to work in non Communist states as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscri ... witzerland

[C-Mag]

Sounds great comrade C-Mag.

The idea does seem to work in non Communist states as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscri ... witzerland

My idea is very similar to the Swiss model. Along with bringing back the disorganized militia in a big way.

[Zero]

I like the 2nd Amendment, well-regulated variety of militia, if I had my druthers.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

Sounds great comrade C-Mag.

The idea does seem to work in non Communist states as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscri ... witzerland

You're right... you don't have to be a Communist country for the state to force the population into labor.

[Zero]

Sounds great comrade C-Mag.

The idea does seem to work in non Communist states as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscri ... witzerland

You're right... you don't have to be a Communist country for the state to force the population into labor.

I’ve always thought the idea was that we have both rights and responsibilities as citizens.

A commitment of service to your community, local or nationally, for a limited time isn’t forced servitude unless you choose to frame it that way. Kind of like bitching about taxes being violence, but then enjoying the benefits of the services and infrastructure that they provide.

Everyone can do their bit, unless of course, people just intend to live off the service of others and claim imposition when asked to put a bit of skin in the game themselves.

[C-Mag]

I’ve always thought the idea was that we have both rights and responsibilities as citizens.

A commitment of service to your community, local or nationally, for a limited time isn’t forced servitude unless you choose to frame it that way. Kind of like bitching about taxes being violence, but then enjoying the benefits of the services and infrastructure that they provide.

Everyone can do their bit, unless of course, people just intend to live off the service of others and claim imposition when asked to put a bit of skin in the game themselves.

+1

Nicely Said