The Draft: Pros-Cons and details

[heydaralon]

I dont think that the draft will stop wars the way you guys think it will. The draft protests made the Vietnam war untenable at that point, but not before it lasted years and years and killed more people than Iraq and Afghanistan combined. Drafts also didnt stop Korea or either World War we got involved in. We have had way more casualties from Draft wars than our volunteer army wars.

Im not arguing for or against the draft, just pointing out that it did not make us more peaceful in the 20th century. If you want to make an argument that the draft is good because it shares the collective responsiblilty for our questionable foreign policies, that is a good discussion. But the historical record tells a different story about the draft and peace.

In terms of conflicts we've entered into without a pearl harbor moment, that shit went through the roof after the draft went away.

In terms of casus belli, do you think 9/11 was bigger than Gulf of Tonkin?

[Fife]

In terms of conflicts we've entered into without a pearl harbor moment, that shit went through the roof after the draft went away.

I'm working on this. What do you mean by "pearl harbor moment?"

Follow up: how many of those moments have the United States had since 1776?

[Okeefenokee]

I dont think that the draft will stop wars the way you guys think it will. The draft protests made the Vietnam war untenable at that point, but not before it lasted years and years and killed more people than Iraq and Afghanistan combined. Drafts also didnt stop Korea or either World War we got involved in. We have had way more casualties from Draft wars than our volunteer army wars.

Im not arguing for or against the draft, just pointing out that it did not make us more peaceful in the 20th century. If you want to make an argument that the draft is good because it shares the collective responsiblilty for our questionable foreign policies, that is a good discussion. But the historical record tells a different story about the draft and peace.

In terms of conflicts we've entered into without a pearl harbor moment, that shit went through the roof after the draft went away.

In terms of casus belli, do you think 9/11 was bigger than Gulf of Tonkin?

Gulf of Tonkin wasn't PH, and there was a draft.

[Okeefenokee]

In terms of conflicts we've entered into without a pearl harbor moment, that shit went through the roof after the draft went away.

I'm working on this. What do you mean by "pearl harbor moment?"

Follow up: how many of those moments have the United States had since 1776?

What was the Pearl Harbor moment for Grenada? Nicaragua? Iraq 1?, Somalia? Iraq? Libya? Yemen? Syria?

We send troops anywhere and everywhere for any reason we can make up. We don't need a PH anymore.

[Hwen Hoshino]

I don't think our current wars would have continued for 16 years with each POTUS invading 2 new countries if there was a draft.

You can have fuck ups like this without using draftees, no problem.

Name one.

Gadaffi, Iraq was done without using draftees...

[Ex-California]

They almost lost control of it in WW2. Least fatalities of all the major combatants and people were getting weary of the fucking thing by 1945.

Didn't know that. What extent/scale are we talking about in terms of that public weariness? More anti-war politicians getting elected into Congress, riots, demonstrations?

I used to believe the propaganda you get taught in public schools and on television that portrayed all of America as totally committed to the fight. Then I had to take a history of Chicago course as an undergrad and learned about what was going down in the city. People were *not* happy about that fucking war at all. They were constantly having to battle looming draft riots. Priests and rabbis were fighting over who's communities were getting unfairly tapped with conscription.

Lots of people were also sympathetic to Germany and Italy.

You're right, especially in the cities. Pacifica Radio was founded by anti-war people. Frequency licenses, even back then are not cheap, and that network prides itself on being wholly listener supported unlike PBS

[Okeefenokee]

You can have fuck ups like this without using draftees, no problem.

Name one.

Gadaffi, Iraq was done without using draftees...

Libya didn't cost any Americans. Libya is not Iraq.

Iraq put a huge strain on the Army. The only thing that kept the bottom from falling out was the economy crashing and the kids lining up for a job. Before that the suicide rate among recruiters was through the roof.

One of the reasons most actions today are special operations rather than regulars, is because the regulars want out or are gone.

Promotion points haven't gone up, and I've been telling you this for what? Ten months?

Automatic promotions for everyone in these jobs for almost a year. Retention has got to be losing their mind.

• The STAR MOS listing is a management tool. These are MOSs in which more Soldiers may have been
  promoted on 1 October 2017 if more had been reflected in the Total Army Personnel Database with an
  eligible date and promotion point score. Soldiers possessing an MOS listed as a STAR MOS are still
  required to meet or exceed an announced cutoff score.
  SGT
  09L, 11B, 11C, 12B, 12C, 12P, 12T, 12W, 13B, 13F, 13M, 14G, 14H, 14P, 15N, 15Y, 17C, 19D, 19K, 25Q,
  31D, 35G, 35L, 35Q, 35T, 46Q, 46R, 68C, 68F, 68U, 68Y, 74D, 88H, 88K, 88M, 88N, 89A, 89B, 91A, 91B,
  91G, 91H, 91L, 91M, 91P, 92G, 92R, 92W, 92Y, 94A, 94H.
  SSG
  11C, 12B, 12C, 12D, 12M, 12N, 12P, 12T, 12Y, 13F, 13J, 13M, 13R, 14E, 14G, 14T, 15E, 15Q, 15R, 15T,
  15U, 15W, 15Y, 17C, 19D, 19K, 25D, 25E, 27D, 35F, 35G, 35T, 68A, 68C, 68J, 68M, 68R, 68S, 68W, 68X,
  79R, 79S, 88M, 89B, 89D, 91A, 91M, 91P, 92G, 94T, 94Y.

http://www.cutoffscores.com/files/cut-off-oct2017.pdf

[Hwen Hoshino]

Name one.

Gadaffi, Iraq was done without using draftees...

Libya didn't cost any Americans. Libya is not Iraq.

Iraq put a huge strain on the Army. The only thing that kept the bottom from falling out was the economy crashing and the kids lining up for a job. Before that the suicide rate among recruiters was through the roof.

One of the reasons most actions today are special operations rather than regulars, is because the regulars want out or are gone.

Promotion points haven't gone up, and I've been telling you this for what? Ten months?

Automatic promotions for everyone in these jobs for almost a year. Retention has got to be losing their mind.

• The STAR MOS listing is a management tool. These are MOSs in which more Soldiers may have been
  promoted on 1 October 2017 if more had been reflected in the Total Army Personnel Database with an
  eligible date and promotion point score. Soldiers possessing an MOS listed as a STAR MOS are still
  required to meet or exceed an announced cutoff score.
  SGT
  09L, 11B, 11C, 12B, 12C, 12P, 12T, 12W, 13B, 13F, 13M, 14G, 14H, 14P, 15N, 15Y, 17C, 19D, 19K, 25Q,
  31D, 35G, 35L, 35Q, 35T, 46Q, 46R, 68C, 68F, 68U, 68Y, 74D, 88H, 88K, 88M, 88N, 89A, 89B, 91A, 91B,
  91G, 91H, 91L, 91M, 91P, 92G, 92R, 92W, 92Y, 94A, 94H.
  SSG
  11C, 12B, 12C, 12D, 12M, 12N, 12P, 12T, 12Y, 13F, 13J, 13M, 13R, 14E, 14G, 14T, 15E, 15Q, 15R, 15T,
  15U, 15W, 15Y, 17C, 19D, 19K, 25D, 25E, 27D, 35F, 35G, 35T, 68A, 68C, 68J, 68M, 68R, 68S, 68W, 68X,
  79R, 79S, 88M, 89B, 89D, 91A, 91M, 91P, 92G, 94T, 94Y.

http://www.cutoffscores.com/files/cut-off-oct2017.pdf

I prefer not finnancing crazy gangsters to take over one of the few wealthier cointries of Africa and turn it into a shithole. But that is just me...

Likme i said the US can still act like fuckhead without a draft.

[Okeefenokee]

I prefer not finnancing crazy gangsters to take over one of the few wealthier cointries of Africa and turn it into a shithole. But that is just me...

Likme i said the US can still act like fuckhead without a draft.

We're going in circles here. My point was that we do it way more now that we don't have a draft. Getting rid of the draft increased the frequency of dumb military adventures.

[Hwen Hoshino]

I prefer not finnancing crazy gangsters to take over one of the few wealthier cointries of Africa and turn it into a shithole. But that is just me...

Likme i said the US can still act like fuckhead without a draft.

We're going in circles here. My point was that we do it way more now that we don't have a draft. Getting rid of the draft increased the frequency of dumb military adventures.

And why would you want the dreaftees anyways close to the action when you can fuck up countries not even using them?

What would change?