poll: was Hitler evil

[Smitty-48]

The fact that the Bolsheviks were even more murderous when it came to their own people is irrelevant. It does not move the "evil" bar.

Why not? The Soviets were the Allies. The Soviets won the war.

FDR called Koba "my dear Mister Stalin"

The moral castigation of the NSDAP while fighting alongside the Kremlin rings hollow.

Nobody fought the war for the Jews.

Can't have it both ways, where you are Stalin pointing fingers at Hitler.

The Allies mass murdered millions, there's no getting around it.

I fail to see the relevance. We've allied with evil regimes before and since. Remember: "He may be a bastard but he's our bastard"? It was so applicable to our allies there's no agreement on who it even referred to! Our alliance doesn't make them less evil, it arguably makes us more so.

As for "the Allies mass murdering millions", do you refer to strategic bombing? That certainly is a can of worms, but it's still way different than herding people by the millions, your own or captives, into camps to systematically murder them or work them to death.

Stalin was the Allies, and that ally was armed by America.

You keep trying to surgically remove the Soviets from the Allies, in order to avoid the contradiction.

The whole narrative of World War Two as some sort of moral crusade by the Allies is bullshit.

If everybody is evil then nobody is evil, evil is a distinction, as there is really none, it is a fallacy.

[Smitty-48]

Furthermore, by the standards you are invoking, the British and French were evil

British and French empires in the Far East were not republican democracies, they were as tyrannical as the Nazis.

Hitler hated the Jews? Everybody hated the Jews

The Jews tried to flee to Canada, the Canadian Prime Minister was asked how many he would take.

His answer was "one Jew is too many"

[Speaker to Animals]

Calling the Soviets anti-semitic is a new one on me.

You just put a sign on your forehead saying "I'm an ignorant, racist asshole". But we already knew that.

As I said in the last asinine thread you started on this, the Nazis, besides being mass murderers and warmongers who caused the deaths of tens of millions soldiers and innocent civilians, were bullies, thieves, slavers, and gangsters. They killed or intimidated anyone domestically that tried to stop them. Besides stealing the property of the Jews and resisters they killed, they systematically looted the countries they conquered, taking art on a grand scale. They enslaved millions of Christians as well as Jews in "work to death" camps throughout eastern Europe. Like all authoritarian regimes, they were an evil criminal organization whose sole goal was their own power, enrichment, and aggrandizement, simple as that. The fact that the Bolsheviks and ChiComs were even more murderous when it came to their own people is irrelevant. It does not move the "evil" bar.

The original Bolsheviks were led by Jews as far as I knew. I think that was his point, not that they never killed other Jews. Then Stalin took over and it was fun for everyone.


One could also say after generations of pogroms, Jews were eager to reciprocate as well, so I am unsure where any of this leads with respect to your two team motivations.

[brewster]

Why not? The Soviets were the Allies. The Soviets won the war.

FDR called Koba "my dear Mister Stalin"

The moral castigation of the NSDAP while fighting alongside the Kremlin rings hollow.

Nobody fought the war for the Jews.

Can't have it both ways, where you are Stalin pointing fingers at Hitler.

The Allies mass murdered millions, there's no getting around it.

I fail to see the relevance. We've allied with evil regimes before and since. Remember: "He may be a bastard but he's our bastard"? It was so applicable to our allies there's no agreement on who it even referred to! Our alliance doesn't make them less evil, it arguably makes us more so.

As for "the Allies mass murdering millions", do you refer to strategic bombing? That certainly is a can of worms, but it's still way different than herding people by the millions, your own or captives, into camps to systematically murder them or work them to death.

Stalin was the Allies, and that ally was armed by America.

You keep trying to surgically remove the Soviets from the Allies, in order to avoid the contradiction.

The whole narrative of World War Two as some sort of moral crusade by the Allies is bullshit.

If everybody is evil then nobody is evil, evil is a distinction, as there is really none, it is a fallacy.

Not sure who you're arguing with, I neither brought up nor "tried to surgically remove the Soviets from the Allies". This is your topic.

WW2 as moral crusade is a bigger argument than was Hitler evil. There you're dealing with shades of gray. I still would argue that American, French and British colonialism was less barbaric than the Nazis were seeking Lebensraum or the Japanese seeking eastern hegemony. Both of the latter slaughtered millions of civilians as part of genocidal campaigns, and that's not including the "Final Solution".

[Smitty-48]

WW2 as moral crusade is a bigger argument than was Hitler evil. There you're dealing with shades of gray. I still would argue that American, French and British colonialism was less barbaric than the Nazis were seeking Lebensraum or the Japanese seeking eastern hegemony. Both of the latter slaughtered millions of civilians as part of genocidal campaigns, and that's not including the "Final Solution".

America perhaps, by that point, but not in all of American history, is US Grant evil for liquidating the Lakota?

[brewster]

America perhaps, by that point, but not in all of American history, is US Grant evil for liquidating the Lakota?

Absolutely. US policy to Native Americans throughout the 19th century was genocidal, larcenous, evil, and dishonest to boot.

[Smitty-48]

America perhaps, by that point, but not in all of American history, is US Grant evil for liquidating the Lakota?

Absolutely. US policy to Native Americans throughout the 19th century was genocidal, larcenous, evil, and dishonest to boot.

Now see I don't think US Grant was evil, so it's all relative, evil is subjective not objective.

One man's evil is another man's Manifest Destiny.

[brewster]

America perhaps, by that point, but not in all of American history, is US Grant evil for liquidating the Lakota?

Absolutely. US policy to Native Americans throughout the 19th century was genocidal, larcenous, evil, and dishonest to boot.

Now see I don't think US Grant was evil, so it's all relative, evil is subjective not objective.

One man's evil is another man's Manifest Destiny.

I won't for a moment deny that "evil" is subjective judgement, but I suspect you wouldn't be so sanguine about this if someone with overwhelming firepower decided that their own manifest destiny involved killing you, your family, and everyone you know, and taking all you have.

[Smitty-48]

Absolutely. US policy to Native Americans throughout the 19th century was genocidal, larcenous, evil, and dishonest to boot.

Now see I don't think US Grant was evil, so it's all relative, evil is subjective not objective.

One man's evil is another man's Manifest Destiny.

I won't for a moment deny that "evil" is subjective judgement, but I suspect you wouldn't be so sanguine about this if someone with overwhelming firepower decided that their own manifest destiny involved killing you, your family, and everyone you know, and taking all you have.

Well, the Lakota were imperialists themselves

They were the dominant military power which terrorized the other Indians, massacres, enslavement etc

They took the Black Hills by force of arms themselves, they were like the Nazis of the Indians.

So I see it as live by the sword die by the sword

A bigger badder empire came along and beat them at their own game

[Smitty-48]

Bear in mind that the Nazis were aware of this.

The Nazis had a fascination with the American Indians.

The Nazis actually idolized the Lakota as ideal warriors.

The Lakota actually asserted themselves to be a master race as the Nazis did.

So now you are sympathizing with Nazis, just the Indian ones instead of the German ones.

The Lakota were as merciless as the Nazis, the Nazis patterned themselves on the Lakota.

Yet here you come; boo hoo hoo, poor little Indians.

If the Lakota can be sympathized with for their loss, why not the Germans for the Treaty of Versailles?

If you can sympathize with the Lakota who massacred, tortured and enslaved, why you so hard on the Germans?