The Green Leap Forward

Ph64
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Re: The Green Leap Forward

Post by Ph64 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:38 pm

SuburbanFarmer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:43 pm
I fail to understand why this capability wouldn’t be built into every solar/wind installation.
It already is... Here's the thing, it's unlikely anything would be 180 degrees out of phase (and especially not of equal magnitude), so you won't get this:

Image

But any out of phase can be problematic...

Image

Ok, even 45 degrees is fairly extreme, but say it's 2 degrees, 5 degrees, 3 degrees... And not a mix of only two sources but of thousands, hundreds of thousands, even millions, all injecting their "ac signal" into effectively the same wire (the grid). It wouldn't be a very "clean sine wave" anymore.

With 50 well maintained power stations it's fairly easy to control, you've only got 50, or maybe even a couple hundred potential failure points... but what happens to those odds when it increases exponentially to 100,000 or millions? Sure, you design safety systems in, but even those can fail in some circumstances...

Modern grid-tie inverters actually do, for instance, monitor the grid for Power on the outside grid, and will cut themselves off the grid if the grid power cuts out (mandated for grid-tie BTW) - so if say a storm take a out wires it's not still feeding power in that could potentially electrocute a line worker trying to fix things. (The same reason if you have a generator you have to cut off the mains connection while running it). Now ask yourself - if your neighbor is also grid-tied into your same wires, do you see the mains (utility) grid power go out? Or does your setup still see the neighbors power feeding in, and they yours, and both keep feeding power to the grid - potentially causing loss of life? Just one of the many potential problems with a vast diverse generation system.

People who don't understand the electrical engineering side if things like to think "oh it's so easy, like hooking a couple car batteries together"... it's not.

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: The Green Leap Forward

Post by Speaker to Animals » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:22 pm

People that don't understand the electrical engineering side of things

i.e. liberals and environmentalists.

Solar and wind power might be really great for powering your house. Just don't connect that shit to the grid. Stop subsidizing it.

I have been reading about a lot of really nice energy-neutral greenhouse designs. That's where we need to focus on alternative energy efforts: small scale applications to reduce demand from the power grid.

The power grid itself needs to be run by engineers, and they are probably going for big-scale nuclear energy, if not just tried and true coal/gas plants.

Ph64
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Re: The Green Leap Forward

Post by Ph64 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:44 pm

Not to mention... we worry about a Carrington Event or EMP attack... now imagine trying to protect not just a few thousand generating plants nationwide but *millions* of individual solar/wind home installations. "Getting the grid back online" takes on a whole new meaning in that situation...

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SuburbanFarmer
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Re: The Green Leap Forward

Post by SuburbanFarmer » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:49 pm

Ph64 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:44 pm
Not to mention... we worry about a Carrington Event or EMP attack... now imagine trying to protect not just a few thousand generating plants nationwide but *millions* of individual solar/wind home installations. "Getting the grid back online" takes on a whole new meaning in that situation...
Nah, that would actually be far less of a risk with every other home generating its own power. The lines might be down, but those homes would be saved.
SJWs are a natural consequence of corporatism.

Formerly GrumpyCatFace

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Ph64
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Re: The Green Leap Forward

Post by Ph64 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:57 pm

SuburbanFarmer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:49 pm
Ph64 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:44 pm
Not to mention... we worry about a Carrington Event or EMP attack... now imagine trying to protect not just a few thousand generating plants nationwide but *millions* of individual solar/wind home installations. "Getting the grid back online" takes on a whole new meaning in that situation...
Nah, that would actually be far less of a risk with every other home generating its own power. The lines might be down, but those homes would be saved.
Presuming your grid-tie inverter survives the event. Hint, I'm betting very few if any on the market today are designed to withstand an EMP type event. Then you've got millions of homes that not only can't feed power to the grid but probably have fried inverters and can't power the home they're installed in either. How long do you think it's gonna take to build & install a few million new home inverters?

Anyways, the point is adding millions of new potential failure points doesn't necessarily increase resiliency. Resilient would be your own system, off grid, with battery storage, with the grid as backup. (FYI some places, I know one in Canada, do not allow battery storage systems to be grid tied - either you grid tie w/o storage, or you have battery storage w/o the grid, but you can't do both).

If you want to go that route, sure. Of course I should mention the side of my house that gets the most Sun has lots of trees I'd have to cut down to put solar up there... Not to mention its New England and its not always sunny, and there's snow, etc. There is wind fairly often... the neighbors might not like a 100' tall wind tower in my back yard though. :roll:

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Re: The Green Leap Forward

Post by Ph64 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:50 pm

How About A Red, White And Blue New Deal?

https://townhall.com/columnists/kurtsch ... l-n2541116
I know many Americans are chomping at the bit to turn our entire economy over to a bunch of coastal blue city hipsters and college professors, along with all our money and our personal freedom, because of a dubious moral panic over future weather, but I’d like to suggest a better idea. I call it the Red, White and Blue New Deal, and it’s a little different than the proposed Green New Deal that seems to benefit only virtue signaling limo libs, crony capitalists, and aspiring commissars. The Red, White and Blue New Deal would, instead, be directed at benefiting Normal Americans – you know, those people who built our country, feed it, fuel it and defend it. People like you and me. So, here it is. All of it:

Support your own damn self and leave me the hell alone.

That’s it. That’s my Red, White and Blue New Deal.
The Green New Deal is all about its version of “economic justice,” so under the plan we taxpayers would provide an income to those “unwilling” to work. How freebies for malingerers cools the planet is unclear. Regardless, my Red, White and Blue New Deal – which is “Support your own damn self and leave me the hell alone” – takes a slightly different approach. That is, if you are unwilling to work, you get nothing.

And it’s not just money that you would not get. You would not get a free apartment or free medical care or a free iPhone either. See, under my plan, you work, and what you earn you can choose to spend on things that are important to you. For example, you may choose to spend your money on booze and drugs, in which case you would get fewer things like food and vacations and doctor visits. Or you may save your money, and buy a nicer car or a better home or get that weird mole removed. It’s all up to you! This radical idea of allowing you to set your priorities and then choose how to achieve them, like by working harder or saving your money, really annoys leftists because it leaves no place for them to tell you what to do.

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: The Green Leap Forward

Post by Speaker to Animals » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:11 pm

I am not opposed to overhauling the infrastructure and putting Americans to work. Countersignal even that at your peril.

heydaralon
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Re: The Green Leap Forward

Post by heydaralon » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:20 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:11 pm
I am not opposed to overhauling the infrastructure and putting Americans to work. Countersignal even that at your peril.
I can benchpress 450. 90 for 5 reps. I'll bet your weakass self couldn't even lift the bar. Counter that.
Shikata ga nai

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SuburbanFarmer
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Re: The Green Leap Forward

Post by SuburbanFarmer » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:04 pm

Ph64 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:57 pm
SuburbanFarmer wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:49 pm
Ph64 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:44 pm
Not to mention... we worry about a Carrington Event or EMP attack... now imagine trying to protect not just a few thousand generating plants nationwide but *millions* of individual solar/wind home installations. "Getting the grid back online" takes on a whole new meaning in that situation...
Nah, that would actually be far less of a risk with every other home generating its own power. The lines might be down, but those homes would be saved.
Presuming your grid-tie inverter survives the event. Hint, I'm betting very few if any on the market today are designed to withstand an EMP type event. Then you've got millions of homes that not only can't feed power to the grid but probably have fried inverters and can't power the home they're installed in either. How long do you think it's gonna take to build & install a few million new home inverters?

Anyways, the point is adding millions of new potential failure points doesn't necessarily increase resiliency. Resilient would be your own system, off grid, with battery storage, with the grid as backup. (FYI some places, I know one in Canada, do not allow battery storage systems to be grid tied - either you grid tie w/o storage, or you have battery storage w/o the grid, but you can't do both).

If you want to go that route, sure. Of course I should mention the side of my house that gets the most Sun has lots of trees I'd have to cut down to put solar up there... Not to mention its New England and its not always sunny, and there's snow, etc. There is wind fairly often... the neighbors might not like a 100' tall wind tower in my back yard though. :roll:
You seem to understand this subject pretty well.

Why couldn’t I power my home and use the grid as a backup for it? What if I don’t want to supply them?

Wouldn’t this be the same as a Floridian using a generator until the power is back on?
SJWs are a natural consequence of corporatism.

Formerly GrumpyCatFace

https://youtu.be/CYbT8-rSqo0

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Speaker to Animals
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Re: The Green Leap Forward

Post by Speaker to Animals » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:55 pm

heydaralon wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:20 pm
Speaker to Animals wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:11 pm
I am not opposed to overhauling the infrastructure and putting Americans to work. Countersignal even that at your peril.
I can benchpress 450. 90 for 5 reps. I'll bet your weakass self couldn't even lift the bar. Counter that.
Those numbers are okay for a kid. You want to work on getting those numbers up to at least 600 lbs.