Sweden Capitulated

[apeman]

I subjective bourgeois morality codes and unitary self interest is now the paradigm, except for a tiny minority, who still rely on honour rather than force of law, in that they still may have to operate outside the walls of the Burg, where the force of law does not reach.

Some of my smaller clients are like this, because small NY contractors do sometimes need to operate outside the walls sometimes, in order to survive.

Really well put.

Well I would trust you as a man of honour outside the walls of the Burg, apeman, although not because you're a lawyer, but because you're a Mountain Operator, you wouldn't let me down, I'd bet my life on it.

It's true, I wouldn't.

:GoTeam:

[Smitty-48]

Some of my smaller clients are like this, because small NY contractors do sometimes need to operate outside the walls sometimes, in order to survive.

Really well put.

Well I would trust you as a man of honour outside the walls of the Burg, apeman, although not because you're a lawyer, but because you're a Mountain Operator, you wouldn't let me down, I'd bet my life on it.

It's true, I wouldn't.

:GoTeam:

I wouldn't bind you to my fate tho, if push came to shove, I'd tell you to cut the rope, ain't no sense in us both going, low man frees the high man, to the summit and beyond, mission over men.

[Speaker to Animals]

When I was enlisted, I heard story where Iraqi troops had commandeered an ambulance marked with the red crescent. They knew American soldiers would honor their duty to the Geneva Convention, and when in range, they would jump out of the ambulance to ambush the Americans.

This is why dishonor is so bad and why technically a serviceman who shows dishonor in the face of the enemy can and should be shot by firing squad. While I am not certain of the veracity of that particular anecdote, consider what happens if true. American troops can no longer respect the red crescent because the Iraqis have violated the agreement to keep vehicles and structures marked as such noncombatants, This means the wounded might not get transported to medical care in time, including innocent women and children, all because some dishonorable men decided to violate their obligation to the Geneva Convention.

Another example: during the War of 1812, several New England states secretly negotiated with the crown to surrender and become loyal again to the British Empire, but Americans (mostly southerners) won the war before any of that could transpire. This was hugely dishonorable and it could have made negotiating a peace that much more difficult for us. Furthermore, had the war dragged out long enough that they could carry out their conspiracy, I would not at all blame the crown for then sending in a large expeditionary force to remove every last colonist from positions of power and impose strict martial law therein. Had the remaining colonies then fought till there no longer existed any hope and sought terms of surrender, THEY would be more trustworthy than the New Englanders who behaved so dishonorably.

More recently, the Army sergeant who deserted in Afghanistan and became a quasi-prisoner of the Taliban should also have been dealt with accordingly. Showing dishonor in the face of the enemy has real and lasting consequences.

Honor is not some vanity. It exists throughout human cultures and history for a reason.

[nmoore63]

To be clear, the civilians were able to show dishonor?

[Speaker to Animals]

Of course civilians can behave dishonorably. Do civilians not also have obligations and codes of conduct to uphold?

[Smitty-48]

Really has nothing to do with civilian v. military, there are civilians who operate beyond the walls of the Burg and so beyond the force and protection of law and so reliant on the honour of other men for providence and ultimate survival, honour is a warriors code, a gentleman is a warrior by nature, but you do not have to go to Paris Island to be a man of honour, nor does Paris Island make you a man of honour by default.

[nmoore63]

Of course civilians can behave dishonorably. Do civilians not also have obligations and codes of conduct to uphold?

Wasn't a jab at you, it was cheap shot at smitty.

[Speaker to Animals]

It occurs to me, though, that when what Smitty calls bourgeois adopt an honor code, the code is based on external obligations whereas true honor is based mostly on internal obligations.

Bourgeois are concerned with money and commerce. If somebody cannot meet their debts, they are considered dishonorable (or whatever passes for that in commercial culture), even if the reason for it is external and not a product of their own moral failings.

But if warriors went by external obligations in that sense, somebody like King Leonidas would be dishonored since he lost the engagement. Instead, your true obligations are internalized. You must do your best against the odds, even when those odds are hopeless. You are not dishonored for trying your best and fighting as fiercely as you can. Indeed, you will be honored.

The obligations should be things that you have control over. Bourgeois value things they cannot totally control but only influence. It's a subtle distinction but it has huge implications. If a warrior's honor was contingent upon victory, then warriors would only undertake causes in which they possessed a reasonable chance of victory and some means to mitigate the effects of defeat on their honor. This means the most heroic and honorable acts in military history would not occur.

[nmoore63]

Really has nothing to do with civilian v. military, there are civilians who operate beyond the walls of the Burg and so beyond the force and protection of law and so reliant on the honour of other men for providence and ultimate survival, honour is a warriors code, a gentleman is a warrior by nature, but you do not have to go to Paris Island to be a man of honour, nor does Paris Island make you a man of honour by default.

Like that time Smitty defended the Canadian cop who kill civilians by doing 75 in a 25, and then saying it was ok because law something something law.

[apeman]

I wouldn't bind you to my fate tho, if push came to shove, I'd tell you to cut the rope, ain't no sense in us both going, low man frees the high man, to the summit and beyond, mission over men.