'Fire in a Crowded Theater' is a Dead Giveaway

User avatar
Fife
Posts: 15157
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:47 am

'Fire in a Crowded Theater' is a Dead Giveaway

Post by Fife » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:46 am

This is directed specifically at the recent hub-bub about speech "rallies" at Charlottesville, Boston, &c., but generally I wanted to make a thread dedicated to a broader principle:

When you hear someone talk about a "fire in a crowded theater" or a "hate speech" "exception" to free speech (free from punishment and from prior restraint), they are talking out of their arse-hole.

Don't be that guy.

Be smart, be free; don't be the dummy blabbering about fire in a theater. If you hear someone doing so, here's a law-skool class, gratis, that you can use to set them straight.

Who better to teach you what NOT to do or say than Nancy?

Yelling ‘Wolf’ in a Crowded Theater? Nancy Pelosi Flunks Constitutional Law
Yesterday Nancy Pelosi granted an interview to a San Francisco television station, and the first ninety seconds are something to behold. She repeated her request that the National Park Service deny a permit to an alleged “alt-right demonstration” called Patriot Prayer. Pelosi said “not allow these elements to use a national park to spew forth their venom.” She then said that “protecting people” was the Park Service’s “first responsibility.” When the interviewer, Pam Moore, pressed Pelosi to consider Patriot Prayer’s First Amendment rights, Pelosi responded, “The Constitution does not say that a person can yell wolf in a crowded theater. If you are endangering people, then you don’t have a constitutional right to do that.”

. . .

[T]he quote is wrong. She’s obviously referring to Oliver Wendell Holmes’s famous statement in Schenck v. United States that “The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic.” Fire. Wolf. Whatever. It’s not important compared to the next point below.

[A]nyone who quotes Schenck is quoting bad law. In fact, it’s one of the most “odious free speech decisions in the Court’s history.”* The court upheld the Espionage Act conviction of the secretary of the Socialist Party of America for writing and distributing a pamphlet opposing the draft during World War I. Schenck could never be sent to jail for this conduct today.

The proper standard is outlined in Brandenburg v. Ohio, and that case is completely silent regarding the wolf threat. Under Brandenburg, speakers can advocate violence even in front of an armed crowd unless their speech is “directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action” (emphasis added).
* It's Time to Stop Using the 'Fire in a Crowded Theater' Quote

Ninety-three years ago, Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote what is perhaps the most well-known -- yet misquoted and misused -- phrase in Supreme Court history: "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic."

Without fail, whenever a free speech controversy hits, someone will cite this phrase as proof of limits on the First Amendment. And whatever that controversy may be, "the law"--as some have curiously called it--can be interpreted to suggest that we should err on the side of censorship. Holmes' quote has become a crutch for every censor in America, yet the quote is wildly misunderstood.



User avatar
Speaker to Animals
Posts: 38685
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:59 pm

Re: 'Fire in a Crowded Theater' is a Dead Giveaway

Post by Speaker to Animals » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:55 am

What about farting in a crowded theater. Is that free speech?

User avatar
adwinistrator
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:29 pm
Location: NY

Re: 'Fire in a Crowded Theater' is a Dead Giveaway

Post by adwinistrator » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:57 am

Speaker to Animals wrote:What about farting in a crowded theater. Is that free speech?
Farts are flammable...

User avatar
Speaker to Animals
Posts: 38685
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:59 pm

Re: 'Fire in a Crowded Theater' is a Dead Giveaway

Post by Speaker to Animals » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:59 am

Seriously, I am pretty sure the police would arrest your ass for shouting fire in a crowded theater for, if nothing else, creating a public disturbance.

User avatar
Fife
Posts: 15157
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:47 am

Re: 'Fire in a Crowded Theater' is a Dead Giveaway

Post by Fife » Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:03 am

Speaker to Animals wrote:Seriously, I am pretty sure the police would arrest your ass for shouting fire in a crowded theater for, if nothing else, creating a public disturbance.
No shit, Sherlock.

The point is "well, you can't yell fire in a theater, so you can't have a permit for a rally that makes our preferred people (or any people) upset (or we're just going to order the police to stand down from keeping the peace)" is a dipshit argument, not based on law, logic, or honest common sense.

When you hear someone using that canard, you can rest assured they are angling towards prior restraint / censorship. Bet dat shit.

User avatar
Xenophon
Posts: 2713
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:41 am

Re: 'Fire in a Crowded Theater' is a Dead Giveaway

Post by Xenophon » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:11 pm

Fife wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:Seriously, I am pretty sure the police would arrest your ass for shouting fire in a crowded theater for, if nothing else, creating a public disturbance.
No shit, Sherlock.

The point is "well, you can't yell fire in a theater, so you can't have a permit for a rally that makes our preferred people (or any people) upset (or we're just going to order the police to stand down from keeping the peace)" is a dipshit argument, not based on law, logic, or honest common sense.

When you hear someone using that canard, you can rest assured they are angling towards prior restraint / censorship. Bet dat shit.
:clap:

User avatar
Speaker to Animals
Posts: 38685
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:59 pm

Re: 'Fire in a Crowded Theater' is a Dead Giveaway

Post by Speaker to Animals » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:23 pm

Fife wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:Seriously, I am pretty sure the police would arrest your ass for shouting fire in a crowded theater for, if nothing else, creating a public disturbance.
No shit, Sherlock.

The point is "well, you can't yell fire in a theater, so you can't have a permit for a rally that makes our preferred people (or any people) upset (or we're just going to order the police to stand down from keeping the peace)" is a dipshit argument, not based on law, logic, or honest common sense.

When you hear someone using that canard, you can rest assured they are angling towards prior restraint / censorship. Bet dat shit.

Who is saying that?

User avatar
TheReal_ND
Posts: 26030
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:23 pm

Re: 'Fire in a Crowded Theater' is a Dead Giveaway

Post by TheReal_ND » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:36 pm

Liberals are front loading things that are simply untrue in order to skunk free speech. Simply saying you are pro white and pro White American is not fire in a crowded theater. Everything is upside down now. I've never seen such a concerted effort against whites in America before. If Clinton had won many of us would be forced to bury rifles under the ground and claim we had lost them in a boating accident.

User avatar
clubgop
Posts: 7978
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2016 5:47 pm

Re: 'Fire in a Crowded Theater' is a Dead Giveaway

Post by clubgop » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:12 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:
Fife wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:Seriously, I am pretty sure the police would arrest your ass for shouting fire in a crowded theater for, if nothing else, creating a public disturbance.
No shit, Sherlock.

The point is "well, you can't yell fire in a theater, so you can't have a permit for a rally that makes our preferred people (or any people) upset (or we're just going to order the police to stand down from keeping the peace)" is a dipshit argument, not based on law, logic, or honest common sense.

When you hear someone using that canard, you can rest assured they are angling towards prior restraint / censorship. Bet dat shit.

Who is saying that?
She's, GCF, typical democrats, you know the type.

User avatar
Ex-California
Posts: 4116
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:37 pm

Re: 'Fire in a Crowded Theater' is a Dead Giveaway

Post by Ex-California » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:49 pm

Its really disgusting to me how many people are willing to throw away Constitutional Rights.

They see the laws in England and Germany and think that its just great
No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session